ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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 Posted:
Feb 14, 2017 - 08:57 |
 
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| Dan-Da-Man wrote: | | JellyBelly wrote: | The chat does need updating. Seems like hardly anyone uses the IRC anymore and I miss the fun banter of the 'good 'ol days' ...  |
No one uses it because it can be difficult to set it up, while discord can just login via a browser.
and what xneolx said im sure we dont need the bot telling us about when to activate etc etc any more so i dont think we need that option now.
Could just update the IRC section with some thing like "Our chat room can be found at *link here* as thats how simple it would be compared to how the IRC is now, take a look at the page to get it set up its massive lol.
All this https://fumbbl.com/help:IRCHelp to join a chat room and we wander why its dead, people want things to be easy this day and age |
Actually the bot's updates are pretty handy - without it you don't know if, for example, you have one coach activating without selecting any teams (which will show up as "X coaches activated" then "X-1 coaches found") or if it's just not enough matches. |
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Dalfort
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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Feb 14, 2017 - 09:00 |
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Discord can utilize Bots, but I assume someone has to write one and its then down to the channel creator to set it up... |
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Rawlf
Joined: Jul 15, 2007
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Feb 14, 2017 - 09:35 |
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The Chat is dead because it isn't needed to find games anymore.
The only way I see it coming back is if it was integrated into the site, like in blackbox but in a more prominent place. Maybe as part of the coach page or even in the headline section. |
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Dan-Da-Man
Joined: May 14, 2012
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Feb 14, 2017 - 09:41 |
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| Rawlf wrote: | The Chat is dead because it isn't needed to find games anymore.
The only way I see it coming back is if it was integrated into the site, like in blackbox but in a more prominent place. Maybe as part of the coach page or even in the headline section. |
I also agree with this comment. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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I have indeed been looking at Discord as an alternative to IRC. This sort of ties in to another response in this thread:
| Dan-Da-Man wrote: | | IRC is out dated Discord offers a whole lot more the site is moving on in leaps and bounds why wouldnt we want to use some thing far better than IRC? |
It's funny how people state things like this. IRC is an old protocol (from 1988). It's been around for a very long time, and is still around. This should give you an idea of how well designed it is as a protocol.
Now, the clients available for installation are pretty weak overall. They require a fair bit of setting up and aren't as easy to use as modern alternatives (Discord, or any other IM client).
Discord is a more "modern" client with a slick user interface but it doesn't have many features that IRC doesn't (voice chat is the most prominent one). However, it does have a few problems from my perspective:
1. External hosting, proprietary code. If I were to integrate with Discord, I'd be forced to play on Discord's terms. Their servers, their rules. We'd also have to deal with their server issues separately from the FUMBBL ones. Not necessarily a bad thing (they probably have a better uptime than us anyway), but it does create another point of failure (network connections to two separate parts of the globe for users).
2. Lack of "server" or "service" connections. Converting BowlBot to Discord would be possible. However, FUMBBL is connected to the IRC server in a more complex manner. The blackbox chat (or any kind of site integration of chat) pretends to be another IRC server in the FUMBBL IRC network. This allows the site to effectively log in as multiple virtual users. These users show up with a backtick (`) prefix to their name on the IRC chat (and also show as connected to another IRC server if you look closely). Without this ability, it'd be impossible to build custom chat boxes that integrate with the chat provider (much like the blackbox chat does).
3. Rate limiting. Discord rate limits messages. This is pretty restrictive from Bowlbot's perspective, as it's pretty frustrating to have to wait for messages because they're being rate limited. In the early days, Bowlbot was connecting as a regular client, but it quickly became clear that wasn't a good way to function. It was constantly being kicked off of channels because of "flooding". Instead of implementing rate limiting, I decided to convert it to a "service" instead, which circumvented the rate limiting of the IRC server. This option simply doesn't exist with Discord.
IRC itself isn't the problem here. The problem is that the IRC clients are all terrible, and expose too much of the more complex features by default. My current todo list involves making another chat box (on the LFG page) that integrates to the IRC much like the blackbox chat does. This requires some more work on my part (it involves a rewrite of the back-end services, and a new UI for the LFG page), so it will be a while before that's in place. However, after the back-end rewrite (and possibly prior to the LFG redesign), I may simply make a page on the site that connects to the IRC chat on the back-end in a more generic fashion (much like the mibbit one that's there now, but significantly simpler. With full access to all parts of this system (including our own IRC server), I can make this chat completely seamless and hide all the setup and configuration you need in a typical IRC client. Power users (such as myself and most of the admin staff) can still use regular IRC clients if they need the additional features (logging and BNCs comes to mind).
I could also integrate the website to essentially have a direct instant messenger that's integrated with the IRC server (although that integration isn't strictly necessary for an IM service), much like other services do (facebook, google, etc).
Bottom line here is that there are plenty of things I want to do to improve the communication features for the site, but I honestly don't think Discord is the way to go. A more integrated methodology is the way to go, which is something I've been planning for a long time. |
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Dan-Da-Man
Joined: May 14, 2012
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| Posted:
Feb 14, 2017 - 11:40 |
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Thanks for the post mate explains alot. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Feb 15, 2017 - 13:07 |
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| Christer wrote: | | My current todo list involves making another chat box (on the LFG page) that integrates to the IRC much like the blackbox chat does. This requires some more work on my part (it involves a rewrite of the back-end services, and a new UI for the LFG page), so it will be a while before that's in place. However, after the back-end rewrite (and possibly prior to the LFG redesign), I may simply make a page on the site that connects to the IRC chat on the back-end in a more generic fashion (much like the mibbit one that's there now, but significantly simpler. |
Hi Christer, just my 2 cents, but I think a separate, integrated chat page might be better than integrating a chat box into the lfg page, for a couple of reasons:
1) I don't know about everyone else, but I kind of like the lack of communication the gamefinder has currently. With a chat box, it might open the door to coaches 'pressuring' others for games - things like: "What's wrong? Your elves too scared to take on my Chaos Dwarves?" or "Aww ...don't think you can handle a Super Star coach, Rookie?". From what I remember, that sort of behavior was present to an extent back in the days where you had to 'negotiate' games in the IRC. Although, if the chat is visible to all (including Admins), it might discourage it.
2) Some people might just like to chat, without necessarily wanting to look for a game.
Perhaps the Games page could do a good job as a central 'lobby' for the site? Everyone could see the games that are going on there and discuss them. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 15, 2017 - 14:17 |
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I understand Christer's reasons about integrated text chat in the site's pages, but having a voice chat with channels too would be nice in my opinion, be it Discord, Team Speak 3 or whatever VoIP. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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I'm not opposed to voice chat at all. In fact, I enjoy voice chat for the most part.
I did set up a Discord server some time ago. Nothing fancy, just some stuff to check it out from a server manager perspective. If you're interested, feel free to join:
https://discord.gg/YgYu3My
As I said, it's very simple for now, but if it turns out to be popular, I wouldn't mind keeping it around as a permanent feature. Having voice as an option is cool, and the persistent IM type chat it has can be useful at times as well. |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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Feb 15, 2017 - 15:31 |
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Been thinking about it for a long time as well (running several servers myself for other communities).. but it wont revive chat on fumbbl. Christer's idea of IRC site integration is the best way to make people connect again. |
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Dan-Da-Man
Joined: May 14, 2012
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Feb 15, 2017 - 15:46 |
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well took me 10 seconds to join this chat room, if more people know about it then i think alot would join |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2017 - 16:01 |
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You can join IRC as well with a web browser within 10seconds, that isn't really a selling point. The problem is that it is not integrated with the site. Even a lot of the regulars are just not on IRC any more, that is certainly not an issue with setting up a client. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 15, 2017 - 16:04 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | Hi Christer, just my 2 cents, but I think a separate, integrated chat page might be better than integrating a chat box into the lfg page, for a couple of reasons:
1) I don't know about everyone else, but I kind of like the lack of communication the gamefinder has currently. With a chat box, it might open the door to coaches 'pressuring' others for games - things like: "What's wrong? Your elves too scared to take on my Chaos Dwarves?" or "Aww ...don't think you can handle a Super Star coach, Rookie?". From what I remember, that sort of behavior was present to an extent back in the days where you had to 'negotiate' games in the IRC. Although, if the chat is visible to all (including Admins), it might discourage it.
2) Some people might just like to chat, without necessarily wanting to look for a game.
Perhaps the Games page could do a good job as a central 'lobby' for the site? Everyone could see the games that are going on there and discuss them. |
The first point is kind of tied to why we don't have an active chat on irc though (liking the lack of communication). As an aside, I'd also say that while there is a risk of people "pressuring" games with it, there's also a chance that if there was a chat, people could actively call out others on some of the absolutely ridiculous offers made - which in turn may be educational. I think the site has changed a lot in terms of what's "acceptable" to a lot of coaches, and actively pressurising people (as opposed to silently greenlighting them) into crap match-ups wouldn't be quite as simple.
I'd also guess if Christer is going to go to the trouble of setting up separate chat rooms, he will probably run at least a 3-day log on them. Which would mean any abuse inside the chat could be easily verified by admin staff, whether they were there or not.
I'd also say that I have quite a bit of faith in the community to police itself in that sort of area. I know of at least one situation where something said in box chat was reported via ticket to staff. I see no reason why ranked coaches would not do similar if the occasion called for it.
Either way, the complete lack of interaction required by the gamefinder turns the whole thing into a "fast-food" service. You go in with an idea of what you want, wait until it appears/is accepted and then play. That's great for convenience, but individual convenience doesn't provide community. You could argue it detracts from it.
If you put the chat on the main games page then you're just keeping the status quo - there's nothing currently stopping people who "just want to chat" hopping on mibbit or into boxchat. If you want to revive chat you need to integrate it into people's primary usage - that's games and the getting of them. |
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Dan-Da-Man
Joined: May 14, 2012
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Feb 15, 2017 - 16:06 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | | You can join IRC as well with a web browser within 10seconds, that isn't really a selling point. The problem is that it is not integrated with the site. Even a lot of the regulars are just not on IRC any more, that is certainly not an issue with setting up a client. |
never worked with me if you are talking about the built in chat. |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2017 - 16:30 |
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I'm in 6 different blood bowl related discord channels. If there were a fumbbl one, I'd definitely enjoy that too. |
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