| Poll |
| Do we need something to ensure a roughly even spread of races? |
| No. Every coach should just play whatever race he likes. |
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66% |
[ 133 ] |
| Yes. Racial variety is needed for [B]. |
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33% |
[ 68 ] |
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| Total Votes : 201 |
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PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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 Posted:
Nov 11, 2008 - 04:20 |
 
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Yeah I know that's an important part of Alpha/Beta testing but I don't think everyone is doing it for the "right" reasons. :p |
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LurkingGrue
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 11, 2008 - 04:47 |
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| pythrr wrote: | | funnyfingers wrote: | I clearly saw specific teams on gamefinder...
| shadow46x2 wrote: | how exactly are you able to see who is activated, especially since christer makes the valid point that the system doesn't activate by team, but by coach?
--j |
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No you didn't. |
He may well have. I just managed to add some of my teams to gamefinder (granted they weren't officially queued blackbox teams). Not sure what would happen if I tried to start a game with someone but the option should probably be filtered out.... |
_________________
"It is very dark. If you continue you are likely to be eaten by a grue." |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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1. There will be no measures to even out racial spread.
2. Gamefinder is not used for Blackbox purposes.
3. The current purpose of the alpha test is to evaluate the scheduler algorithm and its parameters. To do this reliably, I need a reasonably large spread of teams and a fairly large amount of participating coaches. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 11, 2008 - 12:32 |
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| Christer wrote: | | 1. There will be no measures to even out racial spread. |
Thx for the statement. Should the racial spread be extremely skewed AND [B] suffering from it, could then be measures possible? Or is this a final statement?
I think this can be closed then... |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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I have no intention of forcing people to play races that they don't want to play. If people prefer to play orcs, then so be it. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 11, 2008 - 13:40 |
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Well, if it stays skewed, and all the low AV teams get all beaten up. You'll end up with the bashers playing at 200+ TR and the softer teams at a lower TR. So the Bloodkillermacho teams wont get to beat up elves all that much. I dont mind this happening, since I always enjoyd playing well below 200TR. Besides, if you want to build up a super team, you have to do that in R dodging games and cherry picking. Yes, I know... I cant really voice out my opinions yet, since I'm the silent masses who hasnt played a single game in B div yet  |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 12, 2008 - 21:50 |
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Note on racial diversity:
At the moment of this post, the only races with 30+ teams are:
Dwarves
Khemri
Ogre
Orcs
A pattern? |
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ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 12, 2008 - 23:54 |
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So, those are the four most popular races at this point. That's fair enough.
Remember that the division is new, and most people starting a team aren't thinking, "what team do I want to play next?" They're thinking, "what team do I want to bring to this new division?" And the fact that they're looking at it that way skews their choices.
I'm sure that, given the novelty of the division, some people are thinking, "well, now's the time to make that bashy team I always wanted to make, but didn't want to go through the trouble of getting games for." Other people are thinking, "well, I've heard this division is going to be really violent, so I'm not going to play a fragile team." Both of which are perfectly valid ways of looking at the problem -- while it is a problem, while people are making teams specifically FOR the blackbox. But eventually, people won't think that way -- they'll just be out to make a team. |
_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7
(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.) |
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Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 00:21 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | Note on racial diversity:
At the moment of this post, the only races with 30+ teams are:
Dwarves
Khemri
Ogre
Orcs
A pattern? |
A big part of that pattern is probably "which teams haven't I been able to get games with in Ranked during the last year?". Once we can convince people to stop playing cowardous and boring dwarves it will be allright  |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 00:24 |
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just make rats. everyone, let's infest [B]! |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 00:30 |
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| Pirog wrote: | | A big part of that pattern is probably "which teams haven't I been able to get games with in Ranked during the last year?". Once we can convince people to stop playing cowardous and boring dwarves it will be allright |
I actually have to agree with Pirog there. The whole FUMBBL community is so anti-Dwarf/Khemri, no wonder a lot of teams get created. Orcs are noob-picks and Ogre's are for balanced games for once. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 00:33 |
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I like playing vs dorfs - even my [B] rats (almost) beat them. They ain't good.
And Khemri break easy. All teams have their weaknesses. |
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Snorri
Joined: Jun 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 01:07 |
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[R] is racially skewed, just look at the fumbbl tournaments.
[U] tournaments also get racially skewed if they run for a length of time. 7 almost unrestricted seasons of the swl saw it lose all but one or two of its elf/human/liz teams. Race restrictions had to be brought in and now its viable, varied and more to the point, interesting for all.
[B] will be far more horribly skewed than ranked. With a light team, in [R] you can survive the brutality by escaping for a recovery. In [U] because of the race restrictions, there's a good variety of games so that you dont need to escape to survive. In [B] there's nowhere. But you wont see this for a while yet. At the moment, its low tr, and there isn't much to worry about, no matter what race it is and you also have alot of average coaches. So it'll be interesting to most. The skew will be at 200+TR amongst good coaches where the bash will wipe anyone else out and only a handful of races with a single sort of playing style will be present. Pretty boring, and not what I'd call an 'open' competition since most of the races are shut out.
And if you wait around for it to happen, likely you'll never fix it because once it sets in nothing short of a complete overhaul will remedy the situation (as we did in SWL8-10) and thats not going to happen with hundreds of users.
So, I agree with CL that something needs to be in place, but it needs a bit more thinking. As it is,
* It forces too many people to play teams they probably do not wish to.
* Probably still will be a skew at TR200+ (avg coaches will lose their light teams or get them stuck at low TR, but continue bashing away with their bashies).
* The groups is a good idea, forcing too many pro elves on people for instance, is really hard to wish on people (learned from the swl).
I think the group restrictions need to be blanketed right across [B] in some way and probably across TR bands. I dont have the time to really think about it, so I'll leave it up in the air for discussion - it'll be alot harder managing this in [B] than in [U] tournaments though.
I've no interest in [B] given the inevitability of this issue. |
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Snorri
Joined: Jun 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 01:12 |
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| Christer wrote: | | I have no intention of forcing people to play races that they don't want to play. If people prefer to play orcs, then so be it. |
From a slightly different perspective, if you run a competition with no constraints that shuts out alot of teams (as we were doing early in the swl) aren't you indirectly forcing people to play certain teams?
Freedom of choice is sometimes an illusion. |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 13, 2008 - 01:22 |
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| Snorri wrote: | | Christer wrote: | | I have no intention of forcing people to play races that they don't want to play. If people prefer to play orcs, then so be it. |
From a slightly different perspective, if you run a competition with no constraints that shuts out alot of teams (as we were doing early in the swl) aren't you indirectly forcing people to play certain teams?
Freedom of choice can sometimes be misleading. Despite a wonderful ideal, often there is no real choice. Just look at our democracies today. While supposedly offering freedom of choice, often the parties are tending to the one popular vote and subsequently that freedom is just an illusion. |
I prefer the "false" freedom of choice rather than being forced to do something. If you force those that do not want to play their elves against bashers to play elves nonetheless, then they will simply stop playing. The outcome will be the same, bashy teams will be the majority, but with the additional drawback that fewer people are on the blackbox.
Restrictions do not make things better. If more soft teams are needed, it is up to individuals to make those soft teams. |
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