| Poll |
| How do you feel about fouling in CRP? |
| Kill all mens with the boot! |
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24% |
[ 17 ] |
| We like to keep our boots clean, thank you very much. |
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8% |
[ 6 ] |
| I only foul strategically to win. |
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58% |
[ 41 ] |
| I only foul in retribution! |
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2% |
[ 2 ] |
| I stepped in a cow pie. |
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5% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 70 |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:03 |
 
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Here is the scenario that a Git is actually good.
**You always foul his PileOn player with the git**
So his PO guy is on the ground. You send in the git with 0 or 1 assist. You bang the foul button. Only two things will happen...you fail or you crack his AV.
Now the coach with the PO player knows that you are going to keep banging on that player every stinking turn he lays out the Pile on. Now that coach has to think. Does he keep laying out the PileOn, taking a git foul in return?
If he stops using PileOn then that 20/30 TV skill is worth its weight in gold.
Or he could waste a blitz to de pitch the git...which is a win for you because he is using 1 of his 16 blitzes for the match on a low down git and not your good players.
If every turn you foul with a git it messes with the other coaches mind. He knows he is getting the boot every stinking turn until that git is off the pitch.
Fouling wears down your foe. After 4 turns in a row of boot crashing ontop of his pixels its starts to make him mad. After a full half of boots flying he is down right going crazy. IF you come out on top of 7 or 8 straight turns of foulling with more of his guys off the pitch and only 1 guy in the banned box he is screaming to the heavens cursing NUFFLE's name...that is good for you on the pitch. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %12, %2015 - %16:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:06 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: | | Wreckage wrote: | and there people say SG is useless...
seems it makes a world of a difference.. |
I disagree. SG makes a difference of maximum 15% less sent offs if you foul AV 10, which is almost useless.
|
Wreckage was being sarcastic. 
Either that or joking about the percentages. I'm not quite sure what the second set of graphs is showing - care to explain those numbers a bit more Jimmy? |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:13 |
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The problem in the end with the git is that the skill is defensive in nature, for the fouler. It negates a fail (ejection) on the foul.
The strength of fouling is that you can add enough assists to break AV on a 2+ roll. So that is counter to the strength of the git which does not like assists.
So in the end the proper way to use the git is to use him with no assists but you are fouling for results, right?
there are only 2 ways to make the git better.
#1: Make him better to actually break AV. He gets to add +1 on the AV check. Now coupled with DP he is a +1/+1
OR
#2: Because he is sneaky make him harder to ban. He is only ejected if the Injury check is a double. Now coupled with DP he is a force on the pitch that only has a 1 in 6 chance of ejection.
: |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:24 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: | | I disagree. SG makes a difference of maximum 15% less sent offs if you foul AV 10 |
This isn't really the kind of thing you can disagree on. 2+2 = 4;
"I disagree, it's 1.34234552:"... is a rather trollish answer.
But for arguments sake, not that you would understand,lets ignore the statistics above for a moment and look at the absolute numbers (I'm assuming thats what you're talking about, because it can't be about the statistics).
Lets say a regular foul will result in a send off on 11,22,33,44,55,66 = 6/36
only in case of 56 or 65 would this result in an armor break.
so to the 6/36 we add 2/36*6/36= 1/108
6*36+1/108 = 19/108
Now lets say you do have SG.
11, 22, 33, 44, 55 don't get you banned anymore.
So now it's 1/36+1/108=4/108
So, I guess what you are saying is that 4 is less than 15% less than 19.
In reality it's 76% less. But lets not get reality in the way.
Anyways there are other more interesting questions to explore now than whether it makes sense to foul with SG with no assits. |
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Macabeo
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:27 |
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | ...facts backed up with numbers... |
| PainState wrote: | | ...how to make fouling a viable strategy, and SG... |
Excellent advice, guys. LRB4 fouling was a general strategy of attrition, much like Mighty Blow et al. are in CRP. In CRP it turned into a tactical tool that's useful under the right circumstances, and in part consequently a possible path of development for a team. To me this is a great improvement over LRB4 foul all mens, which was said by many to be overpowered and no fun.
That said, fouling still has flaws (the main one being that eyeless fouling favours the team that already has a numbers advantage), but I think it's a very interesting and perfectly viable aspect of the game.
| happygrue wrote: | | Either that or joking about the percentages. I'm not quite sure what the second set of graphs is showing - care to explain those numbers a bit more Jimmy? |
The ratio between the odds of the foulee and the odds of the fouler being sent off. If the odds of being sent off are 20%, and the odds of KOing or CASing a player are 10%, in the table you'll have 50%. It's a bit weird that it appears as 50% instead of 0.5, yup, but still a great contribution. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:27 |
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| happygrue wrote: |
Wreckage was being sarcastic. |
I wasn't being sarcastic, I was commenting on the numbers in the second (lower positioned) graph without personal prejudice. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %12, %2015 - %17:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:27 |
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OR #3, let SG work like PO.
Then it becomes both useful and interesting without, IMO, being overpowered.
Fluff: The player is sneaky, able to get another kick in on the sly if the first boot fails. Or if the ref is looking the player is able to back off and make the foul look more innocent.
In game terms, if you don't break armor or roll doubles, you get to pile on and go prone. "Oh sorry, I tripped..."
This means you can use it to avoid being banned (though you might get doubles again, and/or get a worse result) or to increase chances to hurt.
EDIT: Ah, my mistake Wreckage. To my mind, sure SG can be useful if you're taking an unassisted foul against a high AV target... but why would you do that? Why not just take a real foul with assists and actually try to hurt him? But sure, it has use in some situations. I misinterpreted your comment. Sorry! |
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Macabeo
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:40 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | To my mind, sure SG can be useful if you're taking an unassisted foul against a high AV target... but why would you do that? Why not just take a real foul with assists and actually try to hurt him? But sure, it has use in some situations. I misinterpreted your comment. Sorry! |
Because you may not be able to. Committing to a gang foul means forgoing position most of the time, I'd rather defend a TD than foul a Wardancer. But if you have a Sneaky Git player, you do everything prioritary first and then you foul with the git. If you don't break armor, you lose nothing. If you do, you get the same effect as when gang fouling with your whole team. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:46 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | happygrue wrote: |
Wreckage was being sarcastic. |
I wasn't being sarcastic, I was commenting on the numbers in the second (line) graph without personal prejudice. |
What you're missing, Wreckage, is that the top lines of that second graph aren't really all that useful, compared to the lower lines. It's really easy to foul at net AV4-5, where SG is less good (esp compared to DP). SG is great when you foul AV10 without assists, but even DP/SG isn't actually very effective when you do that (in pure damage terms).
Still, seeing what I'm seeing, I'm regretting taking Guard on a double on a DP lino. SG would have been fun, and the math is (barely) there to justify it. |
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Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %12, %2015 - %16:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:50 |
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for instance.. if I use a 40 TV fouler compared to a 80TV fouler my investment is halved... but then it also depends on the target TV.. so lets randomly say target is 100 TV... we're going with av5...
I either invest efficiently...
sg/dp: 100 TV / 80 TV * 200% = 250%
or no skill: 100 TV / 40 TV * 112% = 280%
or dp only: 100 TV / 60 TV * 163% = 271.5%
so... what if I only had only a really expensive fouler, lets say 70 TV expensive:
sg/dp: 100 TV / 110 TV * 200% = 182%
or no skill: 100 TV / 70 TV * 112% = 160%
or dp only: 100 TV / 90 TV * 163% = 181%
In this case sg/dp would be the best variant.
Conclusion:
What is interesting is that this suggests that it is more worthwhile to develop a dp on a high TV value team while it is better to use zombies and thralls to foul without any development... (actually not really thaat surprising considering that you generally don't want to bloat low TV players, but still worth pointing out when the case displays it so clearly)
In case 1 SG is not really worth the investment (not sure there is a 40 tv player with ag/gen access anyways).
-Not only the risk / reward ratio is lower but also there is a downside to having to skill up a specialised player and being restricted to using him for fouling.
In case 2 it is a bit more complex: The benefit of taking SG here is marginal. On the one hand stands additionally invested TV, time and effort. On the other side stands the absolute ban chance and the implication a ban has on in game events in terms of playing outnumberd and facing a turnover.
Then the question arises wheter you are more likely to foul with less than 3 assists or foul with more than 3 assists...
...taking SG over DP is already equally efficient in a 1 assist scenario and only more efficient in a 0 assist scenario vs av8...
So it is probably not feasible to ever take it first...
But for fun lets look what happens if we compare cas to ban chances instead of ko to ban...
case 1:
sg/dp: 100 TV / 80 TV * 103% = 129%
or no skill: 100 TV / 40 TV * 45% = 112%
or dp only: 100 TV / 60 TV * 82% = 136%
case 2:
sg/dp: 100 TV / 110 TV * 103% = 93.6%
or no skill: 100 TV / 70 TV * 45% = 64%
or dp only: 100 TV / 90 TV * 82% = 91%
This shows quite well that DPs biggest asset is not in increasing the ban/dmg ratio but in actually increasing the dmg chance.
Just because cas are such an unlikely event we see dp becoming invaluable when our objective is to get an opponent out for good.
Personally I don't like to foul for cas but the tradeoff for KO can be sometimes slim, especially late into the first half.
There are some other scenarios that could be interesting to explore, like the implication of only adding the KO chance with 50%... accounting for return chance after half time, as well as evaluating it with 25%.
And if we alter the TV of the opponent, at what point do we actually breach the 100% efficiency that makes it worthwhile to foul in the first place?
But ah well, too lazy for that for now.
In conclusion it seems that there is a lot more point in developing a dp, sg fouler on a high elf team than on some team that normally fouls.
SG does not appear to be really a worthwhile asset under any condition after this analysis but on a highelf it would not be wasted either if he happens to skill up and one wants to keep a dedicated fouler on the team without bloating him with dodge and the like. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %12, %2015 - %17:%Feb; edited 3 times in total |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 16:59 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: |
IWhat you're missing, Wreckage, is that the top lines of that second graph aren't really all that useful, compared to the lower lines. It's really easy to foul at net AV4-5, where SG is less good (esp compared to DP). SG is great when you foul AV10 without assists, |
The graph shows very clearly and unmistakably a 29% points higher loss/reward ratio on a ko attempt with SG/dp compared to dp with av5.
The graph also shows a still very impressive 18% point higher reward/loss in a av 4 situation.
Don't you guys see that? |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %12, %2015 - %17:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 17:02 |
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| Wreckage wrote: |
Don't you guys see that? |
Hey, man if there is no blood on the pitch there is no foul.
Were is the blood?
(Most likely on the bottom of the Gits boot as he rubs it into the pitch) |
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Comish of the: |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 17:03 |
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| Macabeo wrote: |
Because you may not be able to. Committing to a gang foul means forgoing position most of the time, I'd rather defend a TD than foul a Wardancer. But if you have a Sneaky Git player, you do everything prioritary first and then you foul with the git. If you don't break armor, you lose nothing. If you do, you get the same effect as when gang fouling with your whole team. |
This is spot on on why you take a DP/Git on your team. Heck, why not 2 or 3? |
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gkornecki
Joined: May 28, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2015 - 17:56 |
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I can't ever seem to find my way to that "tactical" article on fouling, from an interview with I believe Wuhan...anyone have a link? From A Grotty Little Newspaper article I believe... |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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