| Poll |
| Compared to playing with somewhat skilled up teams, playing a single new TV 1000 matchup is.... |
| Pretty much the worst test of coaching skill |
|
6% |
[ 6 ] |
| A pretty bad test of coaching skill |
|
40% |
[ 40 ] |
| A similar test of coaching skill |
|
16% |
[ 16 ] |
| A pretty good test of coaching skill |
|
16% |
[ 16 ] |
| Pretty much the best test of coaching skill |
|
5% |
[ 5 ] |
| Pie |
|
17% |
[ 17 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 100 |
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
 Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 18:07 |
 
|
I can't really vote as I don't think the info given is enough to make a good judgement on the issue.
1. Is "teambuilding" part of coaching ability? What teams are on the table? Is a particularly nasty CD team that drives itself at 1400 TV allowed vs a range of other more challenging teams? What does that do to dropping two random coaches into the drivers seat?
2. Why is no option given for 1100 TV with a few skills? The question is bound to drive the extremes because of course flat rookie teams have all kind of problems (zons! Chaos!). Given the lack of middle ground it seems likely to me that this is a loaded question with a pre-determined outcome. 
3. What could one game with any parameters tell us about coaching skill and why are we trying to measure such a foolish thing!? 
What is the larger question here? I don't think the poll is going to answer it, whatever it is. Unless it really is to just win a beef with some dude about literally rookie or 1400 teams as stated. |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
 |
|
Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 18:22 |
|
Pie.
The only way to test who is better really it is to play every race against every other race including same race match ups a number of times against the same coach and then look at the results. A single 1000TV match up on it's own is not going to give any meaningful information, nor with a single match at any other TV and proscribed number of skills. In either situation it has to be a series of matches with all possible match ups. The TV level matters not. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 19:48 |
|
| happygrue wrote: | I can't really vote as I don't think the info given is enough to make a good judgement on the issue.
|
I'd say teambuilding is part of coaching ability. My original point was that the current format of BB2's world cup main event (literally rookie TV1000 teams in a 64 player KO cup) was a terrible decision, as it would be one of the most dice-driven, least skill-driven ways of running a tournament. If I played against a coach whom I would beat 70% of the time at TV 1400, I wouldn't give myself more than a 60% shot at TV 1000, just because of the chance that flaky dice happen.
I was asked to consider that I might be a minority in thinking this, so I decided to poll here. However, in trying not to bias the results, I may have under-provided info. The alternative was not very clearly defined, but I did have something along the lines of TV 1100 + a bunch of skills in mind. |
_________________
Content: Twitch / Youtube ; Updates: Facebook / Twitter
(because big banners are compensating)
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %17, %2016 - %20:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 19:52 |
|
Aha, I had not been following to realize that anyone (other than Stunty for obviously lulzy reasons) was doing a big huge rookie tournament.
Well, that makes more sense then why you're framing the question that way. My mistake for being out of the loop!
Still, if fun is the goal maybe 64 rookie teams is a blast - but it seems more likely a better test of which zons failed to draw dorfs on their run to the top than any real skill. |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 20:04 |
|
Well what I find is interesting about this is coaches talking about multiple this or that, running a long term test of same rosters and so forth.
IMO, the #1 factor in determining who is good, bad and the best is all hinging on dice rolling.
Let me explain.
We have 30 coaches, all of them run the same roster.
All the players on the roster are the same.
All the players are human linos
All the human linos have:Block,dodge, Pass, Catch, SureFeet, SureHands,MightyBlow and PileOn. All the skills that mess with the dice, gives you free rerolls or better odds.
So all the rosters are even in terms of skills. Able to stack the odds of all the critical dice rolls in their favor as best they can.
These 30 coaches play 4 matches against the other 29 coaches in one massive round robin.
Here is what I would expect the out come to be, once this was over with.
#1 Some coaches got totally diced on the CAS dice and it took them a cycle of 20 games to get back up and running.
#2 some coaches would breeze through, CAS dice against where divine in their matches.
#3 Some coaches would have a abnormal double fail plays, like picking up the ball with surehands, lose the match.
#4 I could go on and on and on.......
In the end, we would still not have the answer on who was the best coach, who are the top tier and who are the chumps.
Everyone would be yelling about look at the matches, notice this match I got Diced, this match I could not break AV....so on and so on.
The answer to who are good coaches and average coaches and who are the top tier coaches is obvious to us all. All you have to do is look at their win rates, tournament record, CR and the old fashion, what does your gut tell you.
You see, your brain can come up with all kinds of reasons to say Coach X is not good because he picks in Ranked.
Coach Y stinks because he CPOMBS in the Box
Coach Z does not deserve to be considered because he min/max's.
At the end of the day we only have this flawed, very human way, of determining who is the best.
We line up our teams, smash each other to kingdom come and who ever at the end of this contest holds the trophy on high, well, HE IS THE BEST. Then two days later we forget about that, get the vomit taste of defeat out of our mouths and start up another tournament, once again testing each other on the grid iron.
You know, like, just in real life sports.
Then what will happen, after some time, after many tournaments, regardless of Division, it will be come very clear who are the top tier coaches, good coaches and all the rest. |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 20:10 |
|
| PainState wrote: |
A team/coach performance level is tested over a period of time.
Top coaches in R/B have success not just in one group of tournaments, like majors, but have high standings in Rookie Rumbles, Brawls and Smacks across ALL the tv ranges/races and perform well in the XFL tournaments.
It is not just they play in a lot of tournaments, volume players, it is also they have proven they are good coaches because they can play in every tournament format offered in R/B, with different teams at various TV levels and various races and place high in the standings, not winning the tournament all the time but they sure as heck are not "going out" early in the majority of these events either.
That to me is what defines a good coach in R/B |
this!
|
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 20:26 |
|
| happygrue wrote: | Aha, I had not been following to realize that anyone (other than Stunty for obviously lulzy reasons) was doing a big huge rookie tournament.
Well, that makes more sense then why you're framing the question that way. My mistake for being out of the loop!
Still, if fun is the goal maybe 64 rookie teams is a blast - but it seems more likely a better test of which zons failed to draw dorfs on their run to the top than any real skill. |
Well, I'm not sure that only fun is the goal. The 64 tickets to the main event can be won either through becoming top 5 with max 20 games on one team in one of 3 1-month iterations of a huge ladder (basically going 20/0/0 with a team), or by winning one of 49 private league tournaments. In the main event, there is $35k in prize money (the winner gets $10k + a game PC). Also, there's only 10/11 races (human, dorf, orc, chaos, liz, wood/high/dark elves, skaven, bretonnian; probably norse later on). |
_________________
Content: Twitch / Youtube ; Updates: Facebook / Twitter
(because big banners are compensating) |
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 20:50 |
|
| the_Sage wrote: |
Well, I'm not sure that only fun is the goal. The 64 tickets to the main event can be won either through becoming top 5 with max 20 games on one team in one of 3 1-month iterations of a huge ladder (basically going 20/0/0 with a team), or by winning one of 49 private league tournaments. In the main event, there is $35k in prize money (the winner gets $10k + a game PC). Also, there's only 10/11 races (human, dorf, orc, chaos, liz, wood/high/dark elves, skaven, bretonnian; probably norse later on). |
So let me see if I understand this:
BB2 and everything that looks like it is ridiculous.
Did I get that right?
Have fun with the prize moneys. I'm not sure what schooling newbs pays on an hourly basis, but I hope it's worth the aggravation! |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
|
|
Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2016 - 21:00 |
|
Harsh. Possibly fair.
I think the point is that, yes, there are better ways of playing tournament Blood Bowl. But from the point of view of the Cyanide guys, this might well be an easier and more marketable solution than forcing two coaches to play 100 games with 11 Human Lineman each to determine who goes through to the next round. Or whatever better, but more long winded solution we favour. Exaggeration to make the point is alive and well in Internet land.
35 k Euro is peanuts to their sponsors. It's all about people buying the game / products. Any publicity helps with that, even criticism. Who knows, this thread may lead to more sales?
To be honest, I'd not enjoy playing BB for money. I've just about reconciled with myself that I spend my spare time playing a silly game where playing better than my opponent is sometimes (all too often) not enough. Losing potential money because of BB variance? Yeesh. I doubt I'd enter even if I were a Cyanider, tbh. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2016 - 09:31 |
|
| happygrue wrote: |
Have fun with the prize moneys. I'm not sure what schooling newbs pays on an hourly basis, but I hope it's worth the aggravation! |
Hehe. I like to take a bit of a broader perspective. Fumbbl has been a small community for a long time. So has tabletop. I would really love it if bloodbowl as a hobby (no matter where it's played) is as big or bigger 20 years from now, as it is now. As noobish play is not very rewarding, many people playing on cyanide will not experience bloodbowl for the amazing game that it can be.
Cyanide is a big lump of people that lacks both a sense of community, skill in the game (though many private leagues do have a sense of community). In my activities on cyanide and twitch, I strive to provide both (taking what I've learned here on fumbbl and applying it there). I try to teach good blood bowl to a large group of people, as well as providing a non-toxic environment in which they talk bloodbowl. The chat on my twitch channel reminds me a lot of what #fumbbl was before gamefinder. Lately there's often about 150 people there at peak times (not all chatting actively of course). Folks ask skill questions, post their recent success stories or nufflings, and just random banter between BB nerds mostly aged 25-35. I've even logged in there at random times to find people discussing BB when I'm not there. It makes up a lot for the lack of chat and skill that's common in BB2 opponents.
As for the hourly wage (assuming I don't get some prize money from the world cup)? Probably somewhere between $1 and $2 atm. Still, it means that BB has gone from a hobby which costs me money to one which makes me money, so that's not bad. It even has made my wife more accepting of the whole thing. |
_________________
Content: Twitch / Youtube ; Updates: Facebook / Twitter
(because big banners are compensating) |
|
dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2016 - 11:22 |
|
| the_Sage wrote: | | My original point was that the current format of BB2's world cup main event (literally rookie TV1000 teams in a 64 player KO cup) was a terrible decision |
You are rather ignoring the point that there is no other option in BB2 at the moment than either rookie teams or grandfathered teams from other contests, certainly not within the game client as it stands without requiring intervention of some sort which would inherently identify weaknesses in the client which you and I know exist, but which I doubt Cyanide are wanting to advertise by using as the format of their contest. I certainly hope they will take such issues on board and implement the ability to play res tournaments (I know I have mentioned it before to them), but at the moment from the options available the "terrible decision" is, I think, the best of a bad bunch.
It's worth remembering that the aim of the WC is not necessarily to find the best BB coach. It is also for Cyanide/Focus to showcase their game and try to improve their sales numbers. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2016 - 14:01 |
|
| dode74 wrote: | | the_Sage wrote: | | My original point was that the current format of BB2's world cup main event (literally rookie TV1000 teams in a 64 player KO cup) was a terrible decision |
You are rather ignoring the point that there is no other option in BB2 at the moment than either rookie teams or grandfathered teams from other contests, certainly not within the game client as it stands without requiring intervention of some sort which would inherently identify weaknesses in the client which you and I know exist, but which I doubt Cyanide are wanting to advertise by using as the format of their contest. I certainly hope they will take such issues on board and implement the ability to play res tournaments (I know I have mentioned it before to them), but at the moment from the options available the "terrible decision" is, I think, the best of a bad bunch.
It's worth remembering that the aim of the WC is not necessarily to find the best BB coach. It is also for Cyanide/Focus to showcase their game and try to improve their sales numbers. |
That's because I meant this to be about the merits of these systems for gauging skill, rather than a "let's all bash cyanide" thread. =) |
_________________
Content: Twitch / Youtube ; Updates: Facebook / Twitter
(because big banners are compensating) |
|
dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2016 - 14:09 |
|
My point is that the assumption in the question is that the aim of the "terrible decision" is solely to gauge skill. It's not. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2016 - 16:25 |
|
| dode74 wrote: | | My point is that the assumption in the question is that the aim of the "terrible decision" is solely to gauge skill. It's not. |
Sure, you're right there: it may well be a decision that's the right call to make for the company's goals, while reducing the quality of the tournament. |
_________________
Content: Twitch / Youtube ; Updates: Facebook / Twitter
(because big banners are compensating)
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %19, %2016 - %12:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
|
Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2016 - 16:51 |
|
| Purplegoo wrote: | | 35 k Euro is peanuts to their sponsors. |
Is it now? I wouldn't have thought they're that big. What sponsors would that be? |
|
|
|
|
| |
SWL Season CI
Search
