FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Borgen

Joined: Sep 06, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 03:47

Especially given that every saurus has tackle and block, and all the skinks have diving tackle. Its clearly an elf-killing team.

_________________
British or British-based? Join the White Isle League!

Mithrilpoint

Joined: Mar 16, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 04:45

I do not think that lizzies are bashy. They eat grass and have no mb or dp. So there.

Is Albators team made to be most effective against elves? Yes, no doubt about that. Is that *RELEVANT* regarding the question if lizards should play in the cup? No, not at all. Did Albator see this possibillity and use it? Yup, he sure did. Is that clever? Yup, it sure is.

Now...

Is the way this poll is being treated another example of "lets bash albator when he sticks his nose out? Hell yeah!

How about a quote like this one:

Quote:

Albator, if your intention is to set out to disprove the opinion that EvolvetoAnarchism and others have of you, then this may not be the best way to go about it. Wink

On the other hand, if you genuinely can't understand the complaints of the participants, perhaps you're not actually cut out for running tournaments: not all of us are ...

Basically, this is just rude. Albator has stated that 4/6 coaches thought it was okay to let his lizzies play. Hinting - on these grounds - that Albator is not "cut out for running a tournament" is one of the lowest things i have seen on this forum...(cue: ...and you know I´ve seen a lot...).

The problem here is that he has made a succesfull team to do what the cup is about...beating agile teams. A norse team could fiels 4 mb po blitzers but it has not been done yet. So the first person to see and exploit that possibility...what to do with him? Declare him a witch and burn him at the stake...?

In short: No, i do not think lizards are bashy

M

_________________
Stop the Whining!

Diabl0658

Joined: Oct 05, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 04:55

5, not a 6

edit: i need to start reading all the pages before posting, not just the first

_________________
Killing means never having to say you're sorry.

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 05:09

Mithrilpoint wrote:

How about a quote like this one:

Quote:

Albator, if your intention is to set out to disprove the opinion that EvolvetoAnarchism and others have of you, then this may not be the best way to go about it. Wink

On the other hand, if you genuinely can't understand the complaints of the participants, perhaps you're not actually cut out for running tournaments: not all of us are ...

Basically, this is just rude. Albator has stated that 4/6 coaches thought it was okay to let his lizzies play. Hinting that Albator is not "cut out for running a tournament" is one of the lowest things i have seen on this forum...(cue: ...and you know I´ve seen a lot...).

I don't mind if you say who I am when you quote me, btw.

The reason albator's choice of team is especially relevant is that he himself was the tournament's organiser. If another coach had been the organiser, I would give him great credit for exploiting a loop-hole in the tournament, just as you describe. But it's not up to an organiser to pick holes in his own tournament.

While, as you say, 4 out of 6 coaches told albator that Lizards were fine, Albator seemed very concerned that other coaches had been upset at his choice of team. That was the reason why he initially started this thread.

Many posters here have sympathised with those coaches (who may, yes, have been a minority), and have understood why they thought that albator's choice of team was unsporting.

Despite all these posts, albator still seems not to accept that those coaches might have a legitimate point of view (for all that it was in a minority).

Isn't it a tournament organiser's role to ensure that all participants are having fun? Rather than to seek popular approval for an act that has caused some participants (albeit a minority) not to have fun?

In addition: you may think my comments were rude; I think - given his position as tournament organiser - that albator's choice of team could be described as rude. He posted here asking for opinions: that's mine. Perhaps he genuinely didn't realise that some of the coaches in his league would react in the same way. Perhaps he didn't and doesn't care. I don't know the guy. But he invited opinions: IMO, it would be more rude not to be honest in this case.

Quote:

... Declare him a witch and burn him at the stake...?

Now you're going over the top too: that's exagerration. Wink

If you think it was bad when I did it, why copy me? Very Happy

_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi Very Happy

Mithrilpoint

Joined: Mar 16, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 05:52

Here follows the words of pac:

Quote:

If you think it was bad when I did it, why copy me? Very Happy

- to prove a point. And I did. But you are right, i should know better than that.

So basically, pac, you think that lizards are not bashy (?), but these particular lizards are unsuited (unethical?) for the un-bashy cup? (Interpreting wildly here, i know).

On the (totally different) topic of the role of the tourney organizer in a tourney i disagree. (Yay, makes the night fly by). IMO, the organizer should compete on equal terms in a tourney if he is going to compete at all. Not doing so would give his opponents an unfair advantage. So making a less efficient lizard team because he is the organizer would be to oppose the very idea of the tournament...to win!

I have played in several tournaments where the tounament organizer took upon himself to play flings or gobbos (usually resulting in heavy beatings) and in several tournaments where the TO played on equal terms. I really prefer the latter for the reason given above.

Now, should the tourney organizer make sure that everyone have fun ? Yes off course he should but in these cases where the dispute is about personal opinion, (lizards bashy/not bashy, max 1 dp per team, no claw/rsc allowed. etc.) a solution that pleases everyone can rarely be found. So therefore we turn to democracy to settle the point. A poll is created and the result of the poll is quite clear...so far.

And finally:

More words from pac:

Quote:

...I think - given his position as tournament organiser - that albator's choice of team could be described as rude.

In my opinion, this is grasping at straws. You are not addressing the issue. Wheter Albator, my mom, or the whole catholic society for that matter has done something rude previously is totally and utterly irrelevant regarding your tone in this discussion. What you are doing here is a classic example of ad hominem tu quoque which is a fallacy in any argumentation. More about that here

But, as you put it...you are entitled to your opinion as i am to mine.

Btw, Albator runs several succesful tournaments including an official stunty league tournament. Thats why your comment about him being unfit to run a tournament seemed very odd to me.

M

_________________
Stop the Whining!

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 06:37

Mithrilpoint wrote:

So basically, pac, you think that lizards are not bashy (?), but these particular lizards are unsuited (unethical?) for the un-bashy cup? (Interpreting wildly here, i know).

I'm not sure why you feel you have to interpret wildly: re-reading my own posts, I feel that I am making my argument as clearly as possible given the limitations of the forum as a medium. I recognise that my point of view doesn't tally with yours but, as I said: it was albator who invited opinions to begin with.

Quote:

On the (totally different) topic of the role of the tourney organizer in a tourney i disagree. (Yay, makes the night fly by). IMO, the organizer should compete on equal terms in a tourney if he is going to compete at all. Not doing so would give his opponents an unfair advantage. So making a less efficient lizard team because he is the organizer would be to oppose the very idea of the tournament...to win!

This is a fair point of view. Personally, I have long considered it to be poor hospitality to play in a win-at-all-costs style in one's own tournament. However, I certainly recognise your point that running an underpowered team could unbalance some tournaments. The ideal option is of course for a TO not to compete at all: then we could avoid all of these discussions. Very Happy

Quote:

Now, should the tourney organizer make sure that everyone have fun ? Yes off course he should but in these cases where the dispute is about personal opinion, (lizards bashy/not bashy, max 1 dp per team, no claw/rsc allowed. etc.) a solution that pleases everyone can rarely be found. So therefore we turn to democracy to settle the point. A poll is created and the result of the poll is quite clear...so far.

A tournament's not a democratic system: what the TO says goes, and he shouldn't feel the need to start a thread like this to get people on his side. He is free to make a decision, and stand by it. Coaches may then stay or go.

Similarly a poll in which the question is phrased to draw out a specific answer is a dubious, and undemocratic one, and should not be used as a basis or justification for a decision.

Quote:

...I think - given his position as tournament organiser - that albator's choice of team could be described as rude.

In my opinion, this is grasping at straws. You are not addressing the issue. ...

As I said before: albator invited opinions. Judging by his posts, he seemed genuinely confused as to why some coaches might have thought his actions unsporting. A number of posters here have attempted to explain their views on this to him.

From my perspective, alabator's choice of team is the issue. If he wants to avoid similar complaints in future, it might be a good idea to consider his own team selections carefully in future. Albeit clumsily (as you are right to point out), I'm trying to give him good advice for running future tournaments. Smile

Quote:

But, as you put it...you are entitled to your opinion as i am to mine.

Quite. I think part of the problem here is that fumbbl coaches are drawn from many different countries, speak many different mother tongues, and come from many different gaming backgrounds. Thus we also have many different concepts of politeness, sportsmanship and c.

You felt my comments towards albator were rude - and called me on it; that was not my intent, but I thank you for indicating that some might understand them that way.

Similarly, I am sure albator had no intent to be rude to his fellow coaches - but thought it should be pointed out to him why his actions might have been understood that way by some.

Quote:

Btw, Albator runs several succesful tournaments including an official stunty league tournament. Thats why your comment about him being unfit to run a tournament seemed very odd to me.

I made no such comment. That is the way in which you have chosen to interpret my statement. You seem to be an expert on formal debate: no doubt you are also aware that the reader is responsible for his own interpretation of a text. Smile

That said, you and I and all of fumbbl know that there have been other coaches who have complained about albator's approach in other circumstances. I don't know with certainty whether any of those complaints were justified - I wasn't there. But the weight of opinion from coaches I respect would serve to discourage me personally from signing up for a tournament he ran. YMMV.

Again, albator seemed concerned that he couldn't understand why some of the coaches in his tournament were upset. Many posters here have tried to explain what the cause might have been. We can all learn to be better hosts. Smile

I'd be interested in having a further discussion on the role of a tournament organiser, and the problems of differing forms of politeness in such a multi-cultural society as fumbbl, but I hope we can bring down the personal content in such a debate (and apologise for any role I may have played in raising it).

Again, I thank you for calling me on what you perceived as rudeness: I assure you that it was not intended as such, but I appreciate the comment. I shall do my best to post all the more carefully in the future. Smile

_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi Very Happy

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 06:56

Mithrilpoint wrote:

So basically, pac, you think that lizards are not bashy (?), but these particular lizards are unsuited (unethical?) for the un-bashy cup? (Interpreting wildly here, i know).

ok...first off....the cup was *ORIGINALLY* deemed the "Agile Cup" when the lizards first applied...the cup was *CHANGED* to the "Non-Bashy Cup"...and while I won't presume to know exactly why it was changed...I can make a few assumptions...basic fact of the matter....the team used by the *OWNER OF THE LEAGUE* only became fit for the league *AFTER* the league changed format...seems fishy if you ask me..

Mithrilpoint wrote:

On the (totally different) topic of the role of the tourney organizer in a tourney i disagree. (Yay, makes the night fly by). IMO, the organizer should compete on equal terms in a tourney if he is going to compete at all. Not doing so would give his opponents an unfair advantage. So making a less efficient lizard team because he is the organizer would be to oppose the very idea of the tournament...to win!

Agreed...the organizer, if he is even going to take part in the league, should be allowed and obligated to play on the same level as everyone else, if not at a lower level...but when you put a team that does *not* fit the parameters of the league, into said league....then obviously the organizer has *NOT* done his job properly....and again, drop the debate on whether or not the team was appropriate....we've already established...correction *I* have already proven, on several levels, that the team was inappropriate...again, adding to my suspicion as to why the league format was changed...

Mithrilpoint wrote:

Now, should the tourney organizer make sure that everyone have fun ? Yes off course he should but in these cases where the dispute is about personal opinion, (lizards bashy/not bashy, max 1 dp per team, no claw/rsc allowed. etc.) a solution that pleases everyone can rarely be found. So therefore we turn to democracy to settle the point. A poll is created and the result of the poll is quite clear...so far.

True...can't please all the people all the time....but what you can do is stay within the guidelines that the organizer sets....not "let's make everyone else follow these guidelines, and I'll play by my own rules"...and as far as the "poll"?....the poll was rigged as a loaded gun, and didn't even ask an appropriate question regarding to the issue at hand...

let me reiterate so your mind can comprehend...

lizards...involved in an league revolving around *AGILITY BASED TEAMS*.....and the poll was asking whether or not they were considered bashy....wow....nobody stopped to ask "hey are they an agility team?"..no...it was asked if they were *BASHY*....and a lot of people said no, because honestly, at start, they're not all that bashy....but they are MOST CERTAINLY NOT a passing/run-n-gun/dodgy type team....half of the team has an AG of an astounding *1*....and the rest, can't even pass the ball without penalties against them....oooo wow, they can dodge easily...but it's not because they're agile...it's because they're so freaking small they can't be caught....

Mithrilpoint wrote:

Btw, Albator runs several succesful tournaments including an official stunty league tournament. Thats why your comment about him being unfit to run a tournament seemed very odd to me.

Really?....doesn't seem so unfit to me...seeing as how...let's see....I'd recommend looking at the last 2 pages of this, as reprensentation of said organizer's actions...

Let's also look at a few other instances, of this upstanding individual's actions during official fumbbl events....

grossly overbalanced games
more disgusting cherrypicking
hey wow! cherrypicking A ROOKIE TEAM
TTM from the goal line to pad his points in a official stunty leeg event
mmm..my i love cherries..especially the -80TR variety
but you know what? I love the -171TR variety even more
more of such fabulous upstanding sportsmanship
wow...getting angry when his own tactics are used against him...nice
fouling...repeatedly....and being up +60TR....big shocker? i think not

frankly....when i join a league of some sort...i look at the people who run it, and i look at the type of people they are...regardless of what sort of tactics they may use in game, dirty foulers, stallers, whatever...when the game is over, are they a good person?....yeah?...then it's a good league....

in my humble opinion....that doesn't apply in this situation....i've heard of numerous people complaining about tactics from said individual...numberous issues, cherrypicking, harassment to play games, rotten behaviour in general....this bs with the "Agile"...oh my bad..."Non-Bashy so my lizards can beat up on elves" league is just another straw added to the camel's back that's just about to snap...

--j

Mithrilpoint

Joined: Mar 16, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 07:51

Shadow46x2 - I am so glad you posted that. Because now there can not be any doubt in anyones mind that you are indeed playing the man instead of the ball. We´ve all seen the links, read the match reports, know about him and Evo etc etc etc. But you feel compelled to bring it up. It has nothing to do with this question. Nothing. It just goes to support your own agenda, namely that Albator is a [nasty word, bad Mithrilpoint].

This is my favourite part of your post:

Quote:

ok...first off....the cup was *ORIGINALLY* deemed the "Agile Cup" when the lizards first applied...the cup was *CHANGED* to the "Non-Bashy Cup"...and while I won't presume to know exactly why it was changed...I can make a few assumptions...basic fact of the matter....the team used by the *OWNER OF THE LEAGUE* only became fit for the league *AFTER* the league changed format...seems fishy if you ask me..

What you are saying here is that Albator changed the format of the league so he could play his lizards. This is wrong, Albator previously pointed out that lizards played in the cup earlier without succes. Look at cup 5. Lizards not coached by Albator. Wooptidoo.

This is a good one too:

Quote:

Agreed...the organizer, if he is even going to take part in the league, should be allowed and obligated to play on the same level as everyone else, if not at a lower level...but when you put a team that does *not* fit the parameters of the league, into said league....then obviously the organizer has *NOT* done his job properly....and again, drop the debate on whether or not the team was appropriate....we've already established...correction *I* have already proven, on several levels, that the team was inappropriate...again, adding to my suspicion as to why the league format was changed...

Again the suspicion as to why the league format was changed. But more interesting is your "proof on several levels" that the team (not lizards in particular) was inappropriate. Again going for the specific coach/team/human instead of the issue.

Are lizards too bashy for the non-bashy cup?

Well, Albator can fight his own battles, i don´t wanna get even more irritated by this than i allready am.

pac, i´ll be sending you a pm so that we can dig even further down into our exciting discussion of the TO´s role in a tournament and off course the right or wrong way to argue. Smile

M

-edit: fixed the quote

_________________
Stop the Whining!

ruoste

Joined: Jun 02, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 08:34

I would like to add the thing that most of the people who see this poll just vote in it (like i did.) They dont care about the tournament in question and dont know about the story behind the question. Are lizardmen bashy? Well, in a traditional sense, they are not, they cant compete with the "real" bashy teams and tend to be maimed at the end of the game. But as someone said already, they are a hybrid team and can definitely pack a real punch against a nonsuspecting opponent, what in this case, might be the dodgy elves etc.

I don't know but after i voted and read a little more out of my boredom, i felt cheated, my precious no vote is there to prove albators nonexisting point. 4 of the 6 voters who voted no are probably mostly like me, answering a "honest" question in a general mind of the leagues.

But when this poll is taken out of its boundaries and used as a lever to get a specified killer team into one's own tournament, its just plain wrong. i feel disqusted and i would feel more disqusted if i happened to play in the above mentioned tournament. If you want to kill teams, at least be honest about it. I do.

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 08:46

Mithrilpoint wrote:

Shadow46x2 - I am so glad you posted that. Because now there can not be any doubt in anyones mind that you are indeed playing the man instead of the ball. We´ve all seen the links, read the match reports, know about him and Evo etc etc etc. But you feel compelled to bring it up. It has nothing to do with this question. Nothing. It just goes to support your own agenda, namely that Albator is a [nasty word, bad Mithrilpoint].

Whatever happens between him and Evo is their business....frankly I don't care, evo can fight his own battles....and while it may not directly focus on this question, it *DOES* lend credibility, or lack there of, to the individual in question's motives...i have no agenda...if i had an agenda i would be doing things a lot more sinister-like than i am....the only thing that could even at all be considered an agenda is my need to call bunk on someone trying to, in my opinion, work the system to his own benefit...whatever that might be...

Mithrilpoint wrote:

Again the suspicion as to why the league format was changed. But more interesting is your "proof on several levels" that the team (not lizards in particular) was inappropriate. Again going for the specific coach/team/human instead of the issue.

Are lizards too bashy for the non-bashy cup?

yes...i am targetting the specific team....because the team is catered to be the antithesis for what the league was originally built to be...had the team been designed to play a more "out of the box" type game, and developing more agility based abilities, instead of smashmouth, then maybe i wouldn't be commenting as much...

and please.....drop the "are lizards too bashy for the non-bashy cup?"....the original argument was brought up when the team was applied in the *AGILE CUP*..not the bashy cup...the bashy cup didn't even exist until quite a few hours *AFTER* the original poll was posted...which lends even *MORE* shadiness to the entire situation...

oh and one last thing....food for thought if you will...

why was the lizard team not in the league to begin with?...first thought would be "well the team is hideously underdeveloped and not capable of hanging with most of the teams in the league..."

ok perfectly acceptable..i wouldn't want to put a team that has a snowball's chance in heck of surviving into that situation either...

so i did a spot check on the saurii's spp development history....

i *could* be wrong about this....but it kinda looks like that the team didn't join the league until the majority of the saurus had skilled up to block/tackle....hmmm....curioser and curioser....the only reason i say it's not a definite is because i only glanced, and did a few checks....i didn't dig hard enough to look through every team in the history....although i bet if i did, i'd find some very ....very...interesting things....

again...just a complete theory...not a definite, and i could be wrong....

and one last thing...the lizard team that was in the league prior to albator's....didn't have an entire front line with block/tackle, which again, added to the above point....lends a lot more questioning...

--j

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 09:03

one more fleeting thought....

albator2001 wrote:

An internal poll was made in Agile Cup group. 4 think lizardmen aren't bashy and only 2 think they are ... It's 66% in favor ...

Again....before you decided to make this poll to suit your needs, and completely skew your questioning to appease your own conscious....the cup was called the agile cup...not the bashy cup....did you happen to poll your members and ask if they were *AGILE*?

and out of all the members in your league....you asked them all...and only 6 responded?....what about the rest?....did you give them enough time to respond?

you can't even say that "well 66% of my league said it was perfectly alright" when you didn't get an accurate representation of the league....and especially when you polled them on a subject that had nothing to do with the basis of the league to begin with...

finally...before bed....

bash Audio pronunciation of "bash" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bsh)
v. bashed, bash·ing, bash·es
v. tr.

1. To strike with a heavy, crushing blow: The thug bashed the hood of the car with a sledgehammer.
2. To beat or assault severely: The police arrested the men who bashed an immigrant in the park.
3. Informal. To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly: “He bashed the... government unmercifully over the... spy affair” (Lally Weymouth).

also...

ag·ile Audio pronunciation of "agile" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jl, -l)
adj.

1. Characterized by quickness, lightness, and ease of movement; nimble.
2. Mentally quick or alert: an agile mind.

notice that bash is a verb.....meaning to beat things....notice that agile is an adjective...used to define someone being a nimble person....

notice, as well, that these two are *NOT* opposites...

ergo....having someone tell you that your team is not bashy, *DOES NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM* mean that your team is agile....

please try to learn this point, and understand it...

--j

ps...yay for double-posting

albator2001

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 11:51

Since the beginning of the Agile Cup, some coaches complain about the name ... Saying for example that Nurglings weren't agile ...

I should have changed the name a lot of time ago.

In all my tournaments, I make what the coaches of the group decide.

I made an error in posting this poll. Next time I will only ask members of the tournament group.

I don't know that I had a lot of "friends" and that this poll would become a witch's attack.

Since the majority of the Non Bashy Cup decided that Lizardmen weren't bashy and could continue to play, then I follow the decision of the majority.

And even in this poll, the majority decided that lizardmen aren't bashy.

A lot of guys who voted yes, don't answered really to the question. They voted against the person, against Albator2001. And they don't play in No Bashy Cup !

HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 11:54

albator2001 wrote:

... a witch's attack.

A witch hunt.

A witch's attack is frenzied and jumped up.

Very Happy

_________________
A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks

BigMac

Joined: Dec 19, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 12:03

6 ST 4 Blockers, a ST5 Mighty Blow Big Guy and an ST4 Star Player and ST Acess on 7 Positions is Bashing you clowns.
It's not as evil as Chaos but it's nothing short of Dwarves. You get knocked around the pitch pretty bad.

And as the clever guys sad, hitting the Skinks and ignoring the rest of the pack should allow you to outscore them eventually - outbash? Not unless you have a caliber Orc Team and above.

So Lizardmen are 4 AG players and 7 ST players on the pitch which answers your question and earns me the joy of schooling you on blood bowl. youre welcome.

HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 12:11

_________________
A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks