mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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 Posted:
Aug 10, 2016 - 04:13 |
 
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| garyt1 wrote: | | It isn't so long ago that the Box had a % TV difference match limit. What was it, 15%? It was quite unusual to even have 150k inducements, certainly never Morg. But that was a bit too extreme. I would go for 30% as a limit, though I think the big difference matches are rare. |
That's the thing - these kinds of matches are aberrations of something that works decently enough the vast majority of the time.
We don't need solutions to preference. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 10, 2016 - 04:16 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | Dakka, I'm with you and support any limit... may it be 500 or less. |
Thanks. As I said, I suggested 500 because it's a round number and let coaches to induce Morg.
It could range from 430 to 500, or be a % of the TV of the lowest TV team. Christer should decide, of course.
| garyt1 wrote: | | It isn't so long ago that the Box had a % TV difference match limit. What was it, 15%? It was quite unusual to even have 150k inducements, certainly never Morg. But that was a bit too extreme. I would go for 30% as a limit, though I think the big difference matches are rare. |
Big difference matches are not very common in my experience, but this doesn't mean we can't adopt a TV gap cap to limit the mismatch range.
Even if mismatches happen rarely, when they happen they might turn a match into a waste of time. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %10, %2016 - %16:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Aug 10, 2016 - 04:25 |
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For you. Not for me. Because you refuse to embrace the situation. You can't change the wind up you can adjust your sails. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 10, 2016 - 04:33 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | For you. Not for me. Because you refuse to embrace the situation. You can't change the wind up you can adjust your sails. |
Or you can use a boat engine (i.e. a TV limit fix).
With your mindset men would still live in caves.
I'm not asking for a massive overhaul of the scheduler, but for a small TV matching tweak that should be technically viable, I guess.
Things that can't be changed must be avoided or embraced (for example clawpomb), but things that can be changed should be changed (ridiculous TV gaps), if change is not worse than the status quo and doesn't require lot of resources invested. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Aug 10, 2016 - 04:37 |
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You've got to allow the big gaps so the folks who insist on mono-activating ancient CPOMB teams down at 1200-1400 to hunt new squads all day, they still get the odd game against big teams too.
Subtly encourage them to get some meat on their bones, or at least murder their cas-heavy superstars.
If you don't want a big gap yourself, just activate teams at a wide range of TV. I've got 'em from 1080 to 1950 at the moment, and that's a few MNG on the top one that's usually 2100+. If you don't want more than a 500 TV gap, just one big team and one little one activated will see you never get that, if you want smaller gaps still, activate more teams with smaller gaps.
The solution is in your hands. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 10, 2016 - 04:41 |
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| tussock wrote: | | 1200-1400 to hunt new squads all day, they still get the odd game against big teams too. |
Do you really think that playing a TV 1200 team vs a TV 1700 team would not discourage such coaches as well?
500 TV is clearly big enough to discourage low TV hunters.
Also, I activated more teams in the past, before my achieving-Legend-rank-with-all-races-but-joke-teams-project, and still got TV mismatches.
Out of curiosity: are you interested in winning your matches, or you play just to click on stuff and roll dice?
Because I play to win, hence I like to have a quite balanced match whenever possible, or at least a not too big TV gap.
500 is still high of course but I can live with that for the greater good of the Box, it's a fair compromise in my opinion. |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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Aug 10, 2016 - 05:27 |
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What if my preference is for a tv mismatch of 500 plus or minus? Especially against cpomb? I enjoy the variability high levels of inducements brings so can I get the scheduler changed to enforce a minimum tv difference? |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Aug 10, 2016 - 06:33 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Out of curiosity: are you interested in winning your matches, or you play just to click on stuff and roll dice?
Because I play to win, hence I like to have a quite balanced match whenever possible, or at least a not too big TV gap.
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Although not wanting big gaps is fair enough (I remember the likes of Duketyrion complaining about this soon after the % match limit was removed) that is not the same as wanting the most balanced matches. The fact you are minmaxing and staying in a limited tv range implied you want to have an advantage before you start your matches, especially when combined with your legend aim.
If for example my ogres who include skilled snots, so are not efficient, get a big TV disadvantage now that is an issue as it will be an extra big mismatch. But I think that is fairer to complain about as I'm not trying to game the system. |
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Last edited by garyt1 on %b %10, %2016 - %06:%Aug; edited 2 times in total |
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paradocks
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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Aug 10, 2016 - 06:33 |
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When I'm playing poker I hate being at a disadvantage, and like MattDakka I feel like it's a waste of time to play at all if that is the case.
What I love about blood bowl is I can have just as much fun when I'm winning or losing because the outcome doesn't effect my real life. This is perhaps the fundamental difference in opinions here.
I'll admit I may get a sinking feeling in my stomach when I'm drawn against a much better team or coach (or both), but I like the challenge of being thrown into these daunting situations you can't back out from. To me that's part of what blood bowl is about, it makes your brain work the hardest - rather than just going through your same old safe game plans in your more predictable match-ups that you've played 1000 times before.
You see it as a waste of time playing a mismatched game but I think almost the complete opposite, those can be the games where you have to think the hardest and are the most satisfying if you do well. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Aug 10, 2016 - 07:20 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | For you. Not for me. Because you refuse to embrace the situation. You can't change the wind up you can adjust your sails. |
Or you can use a boat engine (i.e. a TV limit fix).
With your mindset men would still live in caves.
I'm not asking for a massive overhaul of the scheduler, but for a small TV matching tweak that should be technically viable, I guess.
Things that can't be changed must be avoided or embraced (for example clawpomb), but things that can be changed should be changed (ridiculous TV gaps), if change is not worse than the status quo and doesn't require lot of resources invested. |
I stayed in a cave on my honeymoon. It had a jacuzzi. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Aug 10, 2016 - 08:07 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Out of curiosity: are you interested in winning your matches, or you play just to click on stuff and roll dice?
Because I play to win, hence I like to have a quite balanced match whenever possible, or at least a not too big TV gap.
500 is still high of course but I can live with that for the greater good of the Box, it's a fair compromise in my opinion. |
Well, MattDakka. I play a lot of Flings, and Goblins, and Ogres in blackbox, and I run them as big as I can make them (1970 TV Goblins!), less so since I took to League play, but still now and then.
There's other box teams too; Frogs, the Hobgoblins, Underworld, 4-catcher Humans, the set of Elves just recently, my record with them is worse when I was new here and better now, but still nothing great.
Some games I play to score a lot, others to preserve my team, others trying to foul-kill the opponent's TPOMBer. I'll take a win if it's there and not fuss too much if it isn't. I have scored 1-turn touchdowns with every older team I have, including the Dorfs in Ranked, and I've won several games playing up over 500 TV in tourneys, over 1000 TV in one case. It's surprisingly easy at times.
But no I don't constantly play to win, or even tie, because sometimes it just isn't worth it, and I don't really follow my ranking other than when I noticed it was in the worst few on the site after about 150 games of stunties in a row, so I made a few better teams to keep it up a bit. 157 or so now.
It's like my oldest league team, Goblins, big, also nearly 2000 TV, hoping to pass the big mark next season, and they don't win much (1/2/4 last season, best ever 2/2/2 as rookies, 8/8/25 overall), but they're great fun and they scare people.
Which says a lot about why I play bloodbowl: building proper big scary Goblins. My box ones got 2nd in the XFL, not too shabby. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Aug 10, 2016 - 08:17 |
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I'm surprised this isn't a thing. It was a thing when I played Blackbox, I think? I guess it got dropped because we don't have enough coaches activating to sustain a cap?
I would certainly not want to play wildly lopsided TV games as standard. So I agree with Matt. But it might mean you got fewer games. In some places, no games.
Tell you what though, he's making a career out of being bloody difficult to agree with on principle, isn't he?  |
Last edited by Purplegoo on %b %10, %2016 - %08:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Aug 10, 2016 - 08:18 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | I'm surprised this isn't a thing. It was a thing when I played Blackbox, I think?
I would certainly not want to play wildly lopsided TV games as standard. So I agree with Matt.
Tell you what though, he's making a career out of being bloody difficult to agree with on principle, isn't he? |
It happens so infrequently that you would perceive it to be a thing. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 10, 2016 - 14:16 |
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| garyt1 wrote: |
The fact you are minmaxing and staying in a limited tv range implied you want to have an advantage before you start your matches, especially when combined with your legend aim.
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How come my Slann are minmaxed? They have 3 rerolls, and all my teams have 2 or 3 rerolls.
If I played Chaos Pact with 0 rrs I would agree.
The fact is that playing some teams at high TV is not reasonable, if you care about having a decent chance of winning and are bored by spending 1 hour watching your opponent clawpombing your players.
If you notice my teams (HE, Slann, Pro Elves) have not enough Treasury to have a bench, I keep an emergency fund to replace positionals when they get killed or crippled.
My UW and Vampires have 14 players for the record (oh, the minmax!).
It's funny that people talk about minmaxing without having a clue of the meta, even if I wanted to keep my elves and Slann at high TV I would struggle and would be pushed back to 1400-1300.
| Purplegoo wrote: | | I'm surprised this isn't a thing. It was a thing when I played Blackbox, I think? I guess it got dropped because we don't have enough coaches activating to sustain a cap? |
A 500 TV cap is large enough. Most of times the matches have a small TV gap, but this doesn't mean that the odd mismatch may be a waste of time when it happens.
Since a game lasts 1 hour I'd like to reduce the chance of incredible high gaps (i.e. over 500 TV).
Over a certain TV gap the matches tend to be boring in my book, especially when they are not major matches. I have not much to win in a lopsided match, that generally happens vs dull Nurgle and Chaos teams, because they are the most suited to high TV.
| Purplegoo wrote: |
I would certainly not want to play wildly lopsided TV games as standard. So I agree with Matt. But it might mean you got fewer games. In some places, no games.
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500 TV limit wouldn't reduce massively the games played, on the other hand, people would face less incredible high mismatches, this is a positive things for a competitive division that should provide quite balanced match ups.
500 TV limit is not 50 TV limit, is high enough to not reduce the draws. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 10, 2016 - 14:39 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Maybe because Nurgle is considered a tier 1.5 team like Slann by the scheduler? |
That'd look more like a bug than a feature to me.
Having an idea of how the scheduler really works might help improve the "activate many teams" argument. |
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