JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 06, 2017 - 00:00 |
 
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This is a useful page, for anyone not already aware of it. Contains aggregate win/loss data for all of the SL games that have been played on FUMBBL so far. It's worth noting though that the average TVs in general are very low (<1200) and, as neubau mentioned, some of the teams may be skewed by a lot of matches being played by top-level coaches.
Currently, Von Carstein are on the top with 67%, with Water Elementals closely behind on 66%. I know I keep banging on about Von Carstein, but the thing that concerns me here is that their average TV for this data is 1230. Vamps are typically weak at low TV, so I would only expect them to get stronger as their TV increases. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 06, 2017 - 00:22 |
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Didn't realise harad was 44/5/6 with that mob. Happy to be one of the 5
I don't think you can actually say anything about von carstein at high tv - vamp tv typically inflates massively by adding more vampires and more rerolls, something the von carstein team cannot do and doesn't need to do.
That's me basically saying they're a team that's going to float around mid-tv mostly. Are they going to be really strong for their tv compared to CRP vamps? Yes. But if you took a CRP team and kept building it, you'd likely end up with something that crushes a von carstein team 9/10 times.
The ability to field 5+ vamps and Apo one of them (for in-game effect) is huge. |
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Burnalot
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 06, 2017 - 00:31 |
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| thoralf wrote: |
Khorn teams are indeed awful to play against. Will PO be deprecated? This may help alleviate the pain.
The number of match up combinations is so high it's hard to say we have robust data. What was your league experience?
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I would like to answer this about Khorne Daemons.
I am playing Khorne Daemons in SLUBBA. It is a closed environment with scheduled games.
After 19 games i have a 11/5/3 record and caused 90 casualties, with a cas diff of +57. They fulfill their intended role well, too well in fact. I normally use the Bloodthirster and only two Bloodletters and that is more than enough. I did not take PO on principle and they are still abolutely dominating most of the time.
Against low AG teams they are just plain brutal as they just rip them to shreds. Sure, sometimes dice are not pleasant, but generally speaking they are brutal and I imagine not much fun to play against.
Most people mention the ability of the Bloodthirster to remove players that is very effective. That is true, but even more useful is his ability to anchor half a team of ST3 players effectively. Add guard and it is even worse.
So yes, DoK might need to be looked at. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2017 - 00:57 |
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| neubau wrote: | | There's quite a lot of races in SL that take a lot of time to become good, many lacking starting skills or have expensive positionals so they have to start either risky with only a few rerolls or without some of their important players, i also like that. |
Please consider that, if a team lacks starting skills, it has a huge disadvantage that should be rewarded by an improved performance over time.
Four Nations desperately lacks core skills.
Sure, over time you slowly build the players, then you get a bashy game, lose 1-2 skilled players and are back to scratch.
While teams like Chaos or Vampires lack starting skill, at least they over time get very good (due to S and M access or G,S,A access and great statline) on the other hand a team like Four Nations in the long run either:
- gets skills, but opponent teams have more skills/stats to deal with them;
or
- loses positionals and it's forced to play some games to earn again the core skills an AG 3 ST 3 team needs, like Block, Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, Sure Hands.
If you play Nippon and lose a Samurai, it's not a big deal, he starts with Block, but if you lose a Forward you will have to skill the new one again.
Playing vs team like Zoats with blockless players is a nightmare: dodging with AG 3 is not reliable, and trying to -2 block ST 5 players without Block or Wrestle is not a viable tactic either.
AG 3 and no Sure Hands and Pass make the passing game a risky option as well. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 06, 2017 - 01:35 |
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Yeah, DoK are very damaging. I played a couple of games against them with my Slaanesh team - I won both games, but took heavy injuries. Thing is, a team like Slaanesh can easily dodge away from them. I can imagine that for a team with AG3 or lower they would be simply murderous.
Their overall win % on that stats page I linked above though is only 42%, so they seem to be filling the desired niche (I assume) of being a team that kills a lot but isn't that good at winning. At least at low-ish TV.
Another thing to bear in mind is that there isn't a whole lot of AV9 in SL anyway and many teams make do with AV7 (Slaanesh, the Skaven teams, stunties ...), in which case the claws are pretty useless.
ST7 on the Bloodthirster though is very high, and many teams simply have no tools with which to deal with it. Overly-dominant big guys is another thing I am a bit concerned about in general ... |
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neubau
Joined: Nov 12, 2016
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Mar 06, 2017 - 01:51 |
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I agree about the Bloodthirster. I barely won this game 300TV up, but i lost two of my best positionals, a third one was saved by the apo. Against a ST7 AG3 Blodge/BT i had to basically doublescreen the ballhandler at all times, couldn't dodge away with my slow AV10 players. The game went from how to get the ball to how do i hide my players best. I only won because of a greedy failed GFI for Bloodlust on a Marauder instead of a Bloodletter.
I think the win percentage is down a lot because so many people try them for a couple of losing games before shelving them, but good coaches get quite decent win- and incredible cas rates, especially once the Bloodletters are skilled up. |
Last edited by neubau on %b %06, %2017 - %01:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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neubau
Joined: Nov 12, 2016
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Mar 06, 2017 - 01:52 |
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@Matt: Noted Four Nations, but I haven't much expririence with them and replays dont work at the moment. |
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AutoAxpert
Joined: Oct 13, 2015
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Mar 06, 2017 - 02:05 |
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I think Daemons of Khorne are actually fine for what they are: a brutally efficient bash team that is actually terrible at winning game. I think the ST7 Bloodthirster is a bit too much for a non-Ball & Chain player. Maybe add WA in addition to Blood Lust to make them a lot less reliable, or make him Ball & Chain?
Some of the datas are actually kinda surprising: Numas is near the top in third position (granted, with a really low number of games played) and yet they have a choice of two kinda-bad linos, no apo, a meh positional and slightly more mobile mummies without MB. They shouldn't be good (I mean, Araby is just a tad above the truly terrible stunty teams, like Lumbria, Nauticans and Snotlings). Am I missing something? |
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neubau
Joined: Nov 12, 2016
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Mar 06, 2017 - 02:11 |
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I think its just the low numbers of games played. |
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Dach
Joined: Dec 25, 2015
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Mar 06, 2017 - 06:53 |
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Yep that's a thing I would add on the Bloodthirster, Wild Animal.
First time I played against them I was actually surprised he didn't have it.
A 5739 player that start with MB and CL having only bloodlust is freaking too good. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Mar 06, 2017 - 07:51 |
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Another caveat to the Azure data may be that most games are via the Gamefinder. If that's correct, no need to delve into the Book of Dakka to understand that Khorne may not be AV9 teams' first choice. Also, many coaches seem to have stayed away from Khorne, perhaps out of decency. This could change, because.
Were I running a league (I thought of resurrecting the CFFL and turn it into a Secret League thing, but got topped by Jelly), I would make sure Khorne is played by 145 players or less.
Oh, and this game:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3855042
My Dryad team met all kinds of crazy players. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 06, 2017 - 12:56 |
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The Bloodthirster doesn't have any negatrait (except BL)?! Wow! :O
As an alternative to WA, maybe consider Really Stupid, which would mean he'll lose his tackle zones occasionally and allow opponents to get away from him. I guess the reason for no negatrait is that it would be very bad in combination with BL and loner? Sometimes he'll roll both the BL and the negatrait and fail the loner and he's off.
The thing with some of the big guys in SL is that many of them seem to break with the established norm of BB big guys too much:
- They have a negatrait
- They have Loner
- They have low agility (max. 2)
- They have no G access
Those things are there to prevent them being too dominant. Other possibly problematic examples: Undead Pirates' Vampire Lord (AG4 + G access); Keeper of Secrets (AG4 w. Extra Arms, VLL, MA7!); Incarnate Air Elemental (AG3, no nega-trait); Zoats (4 players with ST5 that have G access, no negatrait or Loner, that start with Break Tackle & Sure Feet).
The problem with having AG4 big guys that can reliably carry the ball is that many teams (at least at low TV) have simply no tools to be able to deal with them. I mean, how are Half Elves supposed to deal with a Keeper of Secrets? |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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| Posted:
Mar 06, 2017 - 13:32 |
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| AutoAxpert wrote: | | I think Daemons of Khorne are actually fine for what they are: a brutally efficient bash team that is actually terrible at winning game. I think the ST7 Bloodthirster is a bit too much for a non-Ball & Chain player. Maybe add WA in addition to Blood Lust to make them a lot less reliable, or make him Ball & Chain? |
This sounds fun! |
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neubau
Joined: Nov 12, 2016
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Mar 06, 2017 - 13:36 |
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I find Zoats (they start with two very useful skills and no downside and with one double can be Blodge, BT, SF, MB after just 31SPP. Thats insane! A simple +AG and they become better ballcarriers than Bull Centaurs and they are already incredibly strong) and most of the greater Daemons to be problematic as well.
The Vampire Lord is on an otherwise pretty lacklustre roster and Wild Animal on him (as on the Keeper and the Lord of Change) somewhat make carrying the ball harder, but I definitly see where you are coming from. |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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| Posted:
Mar 06, 2017 - 13:38 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | The Bloodthirster doesn't have any negatrait (except BL)?! Wow! :O
As an alternative to WA, maybe consider Really Stupid, which would mean he'll lose his tackle zones occasionally and allow opponents to get away from him. |
But Wild Animal fits the nature of a Bloodthirster much better. If anything at all it should form tacklezones against its own teammates.
Really Stupid at least to me symbolised fat Ogre/Trolls forgetting what is going on around them ("Ah, a butterfly. How beautiful." or "Clouds in the sky, why they move?"). The Bloodthirster doesn't care for the game and ball, but for violence.
AutoAxpert's ball&chain idea seems really perfect to me. It makes the carnage more unreliable and in combination with bloodlust slightly challenging.
Only problem would be the negativ side effects of B&C (bribe, auto KO). |
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