Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Jun 27, 2017 - 13:23 |
 
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I think you missing the important bits of what are being said Helloo. It doesn't "need" a 20 page article. I was saying I could write 20 pages on how to tactically pull off an elf stall if i wanted, but now is not the time. What it is obvious, to me at least, is that stalling with a team like Wood Elves is a very different animal to stalling with dwarfs.
Purplechest again covered some more points on the previous page. |
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Helloo
Joined: May 18, 2015
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Jun 27, 2017 - 13:33 |
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Yes, like I said they all have advantages and disadvantages. We can agree on that. |
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ben_awesome
Joined: May 11, 2016
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Jun 27, 2017 - 14:01 |
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the spirit of the game is to have fun. When you accept a game with someone you enter a social contract to have a pleasant gaming experience.
Stalling to win in a close contest with both players being active participants - yes, both players involved, edge of the seat fun.
Stalling when your opponent is pitch cleared or clicking through turns with their 3 remaining players face down on the pitch? not fun for you or the other person... happens more than you probably care to think. |
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Nextflux
Joined: Jan 22, 2008
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Jun 27, 2017 - 14:06 |
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Lets say you are in turn 6 its your turn, and you have great control of the ball and the area around, if you score you give the opportunity to the opponent to score in 2 turns, its not enough time mostly, but for yourself to steal the ball and score in 2 turns is very hard, so it makes sense to stall at least 1 round.
I have experienced several (mostly rookie coaches) who get quite upset if you stall in turn 6, some guy even left the screen and I had to wait him out to end his turns.
clearly there is no advantge to not stalling in certain periodes, clearly it is in the spirit of the game to stall, unless you consider loosing a better option. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Jun 27, 2017 - 14:07 |
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So, Zhems, just to get this straight. You come here, having played in various table top settings and probably expecting to be better than average. You make a team, play six games, and lose every time with the exception of one draw against Goblins (coached by a Rookie coach). Two of those losses are consessions. Then you make a forum posts where you essentially say that we on this site collectively do not play in the spirit of the game. People do not agree with you, and give you arguments why. You dismiss all of these arguments and then go on to accuse us, collectively, of not being welcoming. What did you expect, that we'd say "oh, you are absolutely right, we will repent and change our vicious ways"?
Firstly, I would ask you to consider who is the one not being welcoming here. And secondly, I would ask you to consider that the level of coaching in the table top settings you have participated in might have been a lot lower than on Fumbbl, and that you are, in fact, below average here.
Of course, this isn't my first day on the internet so I don't really expect you to consider these points but I wanted to make them anyway. |
Last edited by Verminardo on %b %27, %2017 - %14:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jun 27, 2017 - 14:15 |
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I also joined fumbbl scoring as fast as possible. I even tried to start an all-elf league for family&friends for massive elfballing, because that's what I thought the game was about.
Then I realized the game is about scoring more and not about scoring faster, and that scoring fast just made me lose games. So I started exploring strategies that gave me a shot at winning.
You're free to use whatever tactic you fancy, but learn to counter other strategies. Play a good defense, pressure the ball and force them to score quick or make a mistake by threatening to steal the ball (or even better, steal it). Wood elves are good at this.
Opponents will most certainly try to stall (not stalling vs WE is certain defeat) and you'll try to steal. Everyone happy...
As mentioned, there are plenty of leagues with rules that encourage fast-paced high-score games (Pass&Rush still alive?).
| c9805222 wrote: | | Stalling when your opponent is pitch cleared or clicking through turns with their 3 remaining players face down on the pitch? not fun for you or the other person... happens more than you probably care to think. |
If you're down to 3 men, the other team stalling is probably the best thing that can happen to you.
End the agony quick, lose on a not-so-high score and move on to the next game.
Compare that to some little player taking 30 seconds to position each of his players when there are only 3 stunned opposing players remaining... |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 27, 2017 - 14:28 |
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| c9805222 wrote: | the spirit of the game is to have fun. When you accept a game with someone you enter a social contract to have a pleasant gaming experience.
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I fully agree with this by the way but I've come to see part of that social contract in not judging. Some people play Ogres or all Zombie teams or Dwarves without Mighty Blow and that's all good. Some people take artrition skills on every player and that's all good. Some people will try to kill your Star Player even if they cannot win the match any more and that's all good, in fact encouraged by the community. Some people will stall, cage and farm SPP to the limit and that's all good. I don't think there are many legitimate moves within the game that are objectively dick moves. Most of the dick moves take place outside the pitch, as in abusive picking, as in whining, as in verbal abuse in chat, as in deliberately delaying the game, etc.
All that said, in normal Ranked or Box games (i.e. not tourney matches) I usually do not stall against Sunties, or Rookie coaches. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jun 27, 2017 - 15:16 |
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| Zhems wrote: | OMG! I really kicked the hornets nest.
I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed.
There have been a lot of assumptions in peoples answers, the main being that I am a noob. I've been playing Bloodbowl since 1st ed; I am not an inexperienced player by any means. Ive played more 'real world' leagues than some of you have had hot dinners. And on here is the only time I have experienced Stalling so consistently. Thats part of the reason I posed the question to start off with.
I choose not to stall. I feel its unfair on my opponent so I dont do it. Thats the spirit of the game; looking to my friend playing in a way that they will have fun. Stalling takes away their chance at vengeance, their chance to score, their chance to do more than just stand up or roll over the players they have on the ground.
A few people have talked of stalling in real world American football; stalling sucks. It spoils the flow of the game. But it makes sense because they are playing for money. We are playing for fun. For me its the fun of playing against diferent people, maybe make new friends. Winning is secondary, but not unimportant.
Thats my spirit of the game. |
If you are playing in the 'competitive' divisions then you are expected to play to win the game.
You may be able to win by using sub optimal tactics. There are fling coaches with good records. But against a lot of Fumbbl coaches you are just not going to win.
Some people may even be offended by your 'messing about' and not 'playing properly'. They may think that it implies that you think that they are a noob. 
Maybe the [L]eaue division is better for you. 145 Club may be a good place to play. Not because you are a noob. But because if you like to 'give your opponent a chance' you could really help out the rookies.
You could start a 'no stalling' league. That has probably been done before. I doubt that it would last though. Because it is stripping a lot of the tactical element from the game.
If you say that you won't stall, what should I do? If I say the same, depending on our teams that may give you the advantage. So, I will still stall.
But now I have the advantage. I no longer need a full back/safety/sweeper. I can send everyone after the ball.
If I get it, I'm good. If you torch me. No probs. I have plenty of time to replay.
A lot of Fumbbl play is stalling. Even at mid field. Even in your own half. People intend to score in turn 8. They could push forward and score earlier, but they don't need to. So they won't. Your job (if you can't stop them) is to force them to score early, so that you get the ball back with time on the clock. Cynical as it may sound... Your best strategy may be to let them score. But then, scoring would be a bad move. So they probably won't. |
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Jeffthejar
Joined: Aug 31, 2011
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Jun 27, 2017 - 16:41 |
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[Edit: removed] |
Last edited by Jeffthejar on %b %28, %2017 - %16:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Jun 27, 2017 - 17:12 |
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| Zhems wrote: | OMG! I really kicked the hornets nest.
I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed.
There have been a lot of assumptions in peoples answers, the main being that I am a noob. I've been playing Bloodbowl since 1st ed; I am not an inexperienced player by any means. Ive played more 'real world' leagues than some of you have had hot dinners. And on here is the only time I have experienced Stalling so consistently. Thats part of the reason I posed the question to start off with.
Thats my spirit of the game. |
In a way you insulted all the coaches that have been here for a long while, because you disagree with a play style. Ive seen people like you before. You don't insult anyone on here, but away from here in your hot meal Leagues you will talk that we are a bunch of unfair stallers.
If you wanted to say something about stalling, say what you mean, that you don't want to lose. Anyone that complains about stalling is really only complaining about that. The other coach isn't giving you an opportunity to get the ball and tie the game. That is whiny way of dealing with this problem.
To your defence, I regularly call guys sissys for stalling. Not because they are actual sissies, but because there is 1 out of ten that will score to save their ego. No one wants to be called a sissy. |
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Zhems
Joined: Jun 25, 2017
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Jun 27, 2017 - 17:16 |
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| Jeffthejar wrote: | And, back to my cold dinner (it was hot, but now that I've stalled, it has gone cold..)
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Thanks for that.  Humor appreciated. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 27, 2017 - 17:19 |
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| Helloo wrote: | That may be PurpleChest, but then what about my question to Garion whether it is therefore unfair for elves to also be stalling? If dwarves need to stall just to have a fair chance then why should elves be allowed the same advantage? Isn't there a conflict there?
I think anyone should be able to say what they think is fair, and there can be an open discussion where we see the merits of the arguments. If it's wrong, there is nothing for anyone to feel threatened about surely. |
Elves pay for that stall in blood and less players on the pitch for defense. |
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Zhems
Joined: Jun 25, 2017
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Jun 27, 2017 - 17:19 |
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| keggiemckill wrote: |
If you wanted to say something about stalling, say what you mean, that you don't want to lose. Anyone that complains about stalling is really only complaining about that. |
If I didn't want to lose I would be stalling too. Its not a hard tactic after all. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jun 27, 2017 - 17:20 |
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Or you could try joining E.L.F. and prove scoring fast and often is a valid winning strategy against a wide variety of races.
Not even close to the best ELF teams around, but you can see some examples of games where relentless pressure of the ball prevents stalls and win with large margins, which was the goal with which I made this team for. |
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Zhems
Joined: Jun 25, 2017
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| Posted:
Jun 27, 2017 - 17:23 |
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| finsterface wrote: |
| Zhems wrote: | | I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed. |
...this is not how interpret the majority of the responses. |
My dry humor doesn't translate well to text format. |
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