MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 18:12 |
 
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| thoralf wrote: |
The scheduler schedules. That's it. Everything else is in our minds. |
The scheduler is supposed to arrange balanced match ups, otherwise it could be totally random.
| thoralf wrote: |
The current chat box allows you to communicate. Use it. |
Dramatisation: "Hey, cpomb spam coaches, I'm activating my TV 1550 Slann, please don't activate your TV 2000+ cpomb teams, ok? :3"
Cpomb coaches read, gloat and monoactivate their highest TV teams with a sadistic grin on their face.
| thoralf wrote: |
Algorithms can't replace social norms. |
Nor social norms can be expected to be followed by self-minded people without laws (or algorithms).
| thoralf wrote: | | Speaking of which, I don't understand why a 1400+ team would not carry at least one DP. It should be a duty for all coaches to keep PO in check. The sheer number of fouls should compensate an efficient killstack, for replacing legends is way more expensive than replacing one-skilled players. |
Sure, fouling 1 killer is the way to go. Now you have some of your players cluttered in a spot and a Tentacles Minotaur holding then on the next turn (ok, let's assume no Mino, then you will be man-marked by ST 4 CW and you have to hope for dodging/leaping away).
You remove 1 killer, and there are 2-3 still around.
Talking is easy, actual playing is a bit different. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 18:36 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Dramatisation: "Hey, cpomb spam coaches, I'm activating my TV 1550 Slann, please don't activate your TV 2000+ cpomb teams, ok? :3" |
I haven't actually tried this yet. Might be worth a shot? |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 19:14 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | Dramatisation: "Hey, cpomb spam coaches, I'm activating my TV 1550 Slann, please don't activate your TV 2000+ cpomb teams, ok? :3" |
I haven't actually tried this yet. Might be worth a shot? |
I believe this would be considered collusion and could get you in trouble.
Silly as that may seem... |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 19:46 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Dramatisation: [...] |
Quote fests are boring, Matt.
You use the chat not to whinge to predators, but to make sure you get an even number of players who activated 1500 or so non-rookie teams.
No wonder you want to have Rulz - social norms rely on communication cues, which ain't your forte to say the least.
If beavers can do it, so can you. What I don't expect a beaver to do is to come in a beaver forum to whine about predators. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 20:06 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Talking is easy, actual playing is a bit different. |
Which is undoubtedly why you're here in the forum, always repeating the same thing without really listening.
Listen for a change:
Legendary killstacks are hard to develop. AFAICS, they are built by being nurtured for a long period of time, and by instilling fear in the opponent. The killstack will always be more efficient than the means to retaliate. OTOH, the risk to lose one's killstack is higher too. This needs to be included into your risk-benefit analysis.
If everyone retaliates against killstacks, killstacks will shrink. It's as simple as that.
As for playing, try this. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 20:25 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | Dramatisation: [...] |
Quote fests are boring, Matt.
You use the chat not to whinge to predators, but to make sure you get an even number of players who activated 1500 or so non-rookie teams.
No wonder you want to have Rulz - social norms rely on communication cues, which ain't your forte to say the least.
If beavers can do it, so can you. What I don't expect a beaver to do is to come in a beaver forum to whine about predators. |
That fire that fire, ooooh lord. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 21:26 |
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| thoralf wrote: |
Which is undoubtedly why you're here in the forum, always repeating the same thing without really listening. |
I write in the forums but I have 1994 games played on FUMBBL, while you have 296 matches.
It seems you are the guy who writes more and plays less.
| thoralf wrote: |
Legendary killstacks are hard to develop. |
This is clearly untrue, I saw lots of killstack legends. They are probably the most common kind of legend, followed by ball carrier players.
| thoralf wrote: | | AFAICS, they are built by being nurtured for a long period of time, and by instilling fear in the opponent. |
They actually remove players, they are more than scarecrows.
| thoralf wrote: | | This needs to be included into your risk-benefit analysis. |
Fouling as it is can't be used by any team effectively.
If your team has 40k players like Hobbos, Thralls, Zombies and you have a bench due to their cheapness then yes fouling can counter the killstack, but if you play teams like Elves or Slann, without a bench due to the high cost of their players, and struggling to get core skills to have a degree of reliability, then fouling is not a good answer, it could even make things worse if your player is ejected.
| thoralf wrote: | | As for playing, try this. |
And your point is? You played a league match, I play in league too, and cpomb is a problem there as well, nothing new. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 21:39 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
What bghandras is implying is completely different anyway - he means if you know you are never going to face cpomb teams you can both build in ways that you might otherwise not, and are able to pick skills that you might have hesitated on in the past. It's just completely warping metas.
I'd imagine putting dwarves up to about 2.2M TV through the "1" draws wouldn't exactly be difficult.
You'd just be creating a different problem in two different pools. |
I'm not really seeing why more diversity is a problem.
There is nothing to stop CPOMBers playing in the one draw. Bill had CPOMBers in the OLC. They still to plenty of damage. Just not so efficiently. Don't expect dwarves to be suddenly kicking chaos ass.
| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
What happens to high tv rats and necro and (any tv) underworld in that? Are they simply to just go play chaos and nurgle in the other draw? (especially thinking if building a team towards majors in which CRP would be used). |
What happens to them now?
| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | | bghandras wrote: |
So if a person is interested to build the team rather than winning, then he should use the "1" draw. So even if that is most popular, it does not mean that is the most fun for people. |
You could play to win in the 1 draw. It is only an issue if your main strategy is to always pile on.  |
No, what he says is true - it's an issue because it does laterally place heavy support on team-building. Incidentally, depending on how you nerf it, that does not change "always pile on" at all - that is the main strategy for a not insignificant number of players in box regardless of whether they have claw or not.
And if you nerf the way you have in OLC, then you have created two pools of play in B - one for "super elves, orcs and dorfs" and one for "cpomb". |
Excellent! 
Nothing stopping CPOMB playing in the one draw. If they actually want to play and not just kill.
| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | | bghandras wrote: |
P.S. I would support a slight nerf to killstack (my favourite is mb does not help on armor roll), but i am totally against having 2 rules in blackbox. |
Why? As it stands a lot of people are just not playing at all. Or sticking to 30 games max per team. You could still run tournaments on official rules.
Put a big message on the activation page and people should be able to figure out what they are getting. People could stick to the three draws if they didn't like it. |
"A lot of people are not just playing at all" - it's summer. If you mean long-term, then quite frankly, people stop playing box for lots of reasons, and lots of those people who are lost to box were "cpombers" themselves. Box is actually extremely healthy during the euro time zones anyway, plenty go past 30 games as it is with lots of different races.
But really, the latest topic of discussion here was not about box in general (which is another matter imo). But about a very specific timeframe of box, during which the population is so low as to render the match-making process painful at times. And your solution to that is to make the population even more divisive.
One of the biggest problems with divisiveness is already seen by the volume of players who will play "soft" teams in ranked and then cpomb only in box. |
IMO it is the same problem. It is just worse during US evening as you had fewer coaches to start with.
As for "divisive", I would happily nerf all four draws.
But people are determined to stick with the old CPOMB. So 1 in 4 is a compromise. I'm not seeing the "problems" raised as problems.
But hey. If this is what people want I'll leave you to it.
| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | Diversity should be enforced by the scheduler (you must activate 1 bash, 1 hybrid, 1 agile)... |
I don't really like it.
As a compromise allow activating only one team if that team has fewer than e.g. 20 or 30 games.
People like to really play a team when it is getting started.
It would still be a Sprint killer for experienced teams though. |
Sprint killer?
Without being a complete arse about it - how many people actually care about the general sprints? Do we have an idea? I've no idea and I ask this as one of the people responsible for updating one of the most visible of the metagroups utilising your scripts to track them.
I think a reasonable population of the ARR sprinters do since I see badges added to a decent% of teams etc (and yes, i check), and I know HPL (despite their lack of thread updates) care because I've seen enough asking about where to find the tables when the site went down... but the general sprints?
[edit] not that I'm lending support for Matt's proposal. |
The point really is that people who don't play a lot of games would find making 16 games and developing a team even slower. Slow enough to not bother. |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 22:24 |
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Yesterday night a predator clawpomb monoactivation was hiding among us. We chatted so thoralf spotted him. He deactivated leaving the number of activations odd (from 6 to 5).
Guess what? We all had our matches and the predator was left without one.
Thanks thoralf! |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 22:30 |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 22:30 |
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Koadah, what you're effectively proposing is an "bubble" environment where all pixels are less apt to die, that is able to both play with the rest of the division and with other divisions in tournaments.
That (a) doesn't guarantee any more diversity at all, and (b) actually makes it potentially easier to make a cpomb behemoth that you then enter in a tourney that will be using CRP rules.
You could just say you want a cpomb fix. But we all know that, and it wasn't really what was being discussed. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 22:35 |
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Yeah, I don't know what house rules have to do with a problem that Box is insufficiently random based on the behavior of a few coaches. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 22:57 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | thoralf wrote: |
Legendary killstacks are hard to develop. |
This is clearly untrue, I saw lots of killstack legends. |
Because you saw lots of legendary killstacks they're easy to develop?
In your thousands of games, you've had six.
OK, you're sweetspotting because you're into win rate, so it's underrepresentative. Still, multiply this by five, that's 30 players out of how many?
176 Star Player Points is lots of dedication, even more if you consider that there's an easy way to make sure killstack monoactivators get less games.
| Uedder wrote: | | Guess what? We all had our matches and the predator was left without one. |
Not only that - he activated other teams later on. |
Last edited by thoralf on %b %17, %2016 - %23:%Sep; edited 2 times in total |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 22:58 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | | Guess what? We all had our matches and the predator was left without one. |
Not only that - he activated other teams later on. |
What makes you think he didn't try to activate the other teams back when you smoked him out? |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 17, 2016 - 23:07 |
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| tmoila wrote: | | What makes you think he didn't try to activate the other teams back when you smoked him out? |
This, and the fact that the scheduler tries to reduce TS differentials.
Also note that what I'm suggesting implements a very similar thing Matt or PS suggests, and that when there's an odd number of players, there's always one to sit for the round. |
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