| Poll |
| SHould the TS rebate be removed? |
| Remove the TS rebate |
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58% |
[ 109 ] |
| Keep things as they are |
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23% |
[ 43 ] |
| Keep things as they are, but fix the Leader thing |
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18% |
[ 34 ] |
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| Total Votes : 186 |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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 Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:27 |
 
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What Sillysod said. Listen to the man. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:31 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | This is not just Dwarfs |
Want me to send numbers for those others races? |
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Last edited by sk8bcn on %b %12, %2009 - %15:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:34 |
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Win % and 10 games at least:
Here we go: best Huamn reroll less team: 11th Fallen00 at 55% |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:40 |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:44 |
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i like the fact that the majority of the people opposed to removing the rebate(or who are proposing a change that is a simple "oh let's add 2TS to the team then"), are coaches who run 0RR teams...
treborius -> http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=521542 <- orcs
draxus -> 7 0RR teams(3 necro, 2 chaos, amazons, lizards) and 1RR team(norse)
frankenstein -> http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=524229 <- pro elves(and apparently a new 0RR fling team)
westerner -> http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=516399 <- dwarfs
that's certainly not all, and certainly not simply the coaches chiming in on this thread...
notice that only one of those coaches is running dorfs....the problem isn't a race problem...and the problem also is *not* the ability of said teams to win....in the case of draxus, well, coaching ability is undermining that train....
but what about skulltaker's dorfs?...plenty of people have specced his matches and agree that his tactics are terrible....the problem is his team so grossly outpowers anyone they come across that he can win by just trouncing anyone, and does more often than he loses(current record as of this post, 12/3/9)...a 16 skill, 11 man team at TS 126?...seriously cmon....
*that* is the problem....it's not about the viability of playing a race...
a) it undermines one of the original tenents of creating blackbox...working towards removing cherrypicking from fumbbl...
b) what about new coaches who come in and have to face this crap?...what if they get the perspective that the entirety of blackbox is this way?...what's to keep them there when they want to try and play on fair grounds?
jesus christ people...look beyond the whole "oh they don't have a winning record, blah blah blah"....
it's not about the ability of a team to win...
--j |
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Last edited by shadow46x2 on %b %12, %2009 - %15:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:44 |
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Chaos: the 11th team has 1 reroll. Then you have to go to place 22th where Draxus sits at 55% |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 15:52 |
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while it is true what you're writing - have you had the idea, that we actually know what we're talking about *because* we're playing 0 RR ? 
also, if you've followed this thread you saw that i voted to fix the TS-evaluation of Leader - how does your brain judge that, then (i don't know if you've guessed, yet - i do play a 0 RR - team with a Leader, as well - see your link above)
EDIT:
to spare anyone from looking through this thread:
| treborius wrote: | | what i think is really obvious though: Leader is not accounted for correctly (especially at 0 or 1 regular RRs) - this really needs fixing. |
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Last edited by treborius on %b %12, %2009 - %16:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:01 |
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I don't care about rebate or stuff, as I wanna play with rerolls. However, I can't admit that you make of this TEH Overpowered Tool.
Treborius made it a 5/6/4 result. He is a 55% winning coach.
Draxus runs at 40% currently 48% with the trick.
Frankenstein has 64% and is currently at 6/0/4.
Westerner runs at 59% with his dorfs, 61% with his account.
None of them explode their ability.
Maybe you can find some mediocre coach who plays with luck thus, rerolls aren't anyway goeing to help him. But fact is, maybe the rebate is too high, but it's not the overpowered meta-gaming route. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:02 |
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Feel free to start with halflings.... and then move on via vampires. TS min/maxing does work and you can use zero RR teams to min/max TS efficiency although its far from the only trick in the book.
IMO you are quoting the wrong figures. Looking at the best teams is only one way to check if something is broken, what you also need to ask is:
- are any of the coaches performing significantly better with their zero RR teams than with their other teams?
- are there any examples of where the TS is clearly wrong, assuming competant coaches
- how many coaches are actually using zero RR teams... I'm betting not that many, certainly not 10%, thus its something of a suprise that there is even one successful team out of the 10 treborius listed
- how are the zero RR teams doing overall, standard teams with fine coaches might be better equipped to achieve the stunning 80%+ win rates but overall standard teams will get a 50% win rate... is that true for zero RR teams? What I'm getting at is that zero RR teams might be better equipped in general to get a 60%+ win rate but just arent able to push it too much higher than that. Hope this point makes sense.
- are the zero RR teams as well managed as they could be? Personally I think that alot of them are... they could be much more scary.
| sk8bcn wrote: | | No team under top 30 for skavens. |
I retired mine on 9 games after a poor team management decision (buying a freebooter), I'll be quite happy to create another ratty team (after my exams) and game them onto the skaven list, if not to the top of it. I'm guessing that a 72% winning record would be sufficient though? |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:08 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | i like the fact that the majority of the people opposed to removing the rebate(or who are proposing a change that is a simple "oh let's add 2TS to the team then"), are coaches who run 0RR teams...
[...]
notice that only one of those coaches is running dorfs....the problem isn't a race problem...and the problem also is *not* the ability of said teams to win....in the case of draxus, well, coaching ability is undermining that train... |
Dude, the idea to try out elves without rerolls was a result of this debate actually.
Let me assure you this:
Pro elves without rerolls are teh suck, even more so than they usually are. 
Incidentally, I have found out that AG+1 on pro elf linos is massively overrated, but that's an entirely different issue, I guess.
Next, I will try to play dwarves with 0 rerolls, burt so far, my teams keep getting hammered into oblivion during their very first game already! That's 2 out of 2 missions aborted so far!  |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:14 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | i like the fact that the majority of the people opposed to removing the rebate(or who are proposing a change that is a simple "oh let's add 2TS to the team then"), are coaches who run 0RR teams...
treborius -> http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=521542 <- orcs
draxus -> 7 0RR teams(3 necro, 2 chaos, amazons, lizards) and 1RR team(norse)
frankenstein -> http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=524229 <- pro elves(and apparently a new 0RR fling team)
westerner -> http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=516399 <- dwarfs
that's certainly not all, and certainly not simply the coaches chiming in on this thread...
notice that only one of those coaches is running dorfs....the problem isn't a race problem...and the problem also is *not* the ability of said teams to win....in the case of draxus, well, coaching ability is undermining that train....
but what about skulltaker's dorfs?...plenty of people have specced his matches and agree that his tactics are terrible....the problem is his team so grossly outpowers anyone they come across that he can win by just trouncing anyone, and does more often than he loses(current record as of this post, 12/3/9)...a 16 skill, 11 man team at TS 126?...seriously cmon....
*that* is the problem....it's not about the viability of playing a race...
a) it undermines one of the original tenents of creating blackbox...working towards removing cherrypicking from fumbbl...
b) what about new coaches who come in and have to face this crap?...what if they get the perspective that the entirety of blackbox is this way?...what's to keep them there when they want to try and play on fair grounds?
jesus christ people...look beyond the whole "oh they don't have a winning record, blah blah blah"....
it's not about the ability of a team to win...
--j |
What he said.
I'm 100% with Shadow on this post. |
_________________
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:17 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Feel free to start with halflings.... |
ahh mmm, I did, got caught with Shadows post:
Flings are the only team were it seems like working, as Sillyod is 1th and the second exploit it too, because of the chief.
| Quote: | and then move on via vampires. TS min/maxing does work and you can use zero RR teams to min/max TS efficiency although its far from the only trick in the book.
IMO you are quoting the wrong figures. Looking at the best teams is only one way to check if something is broken, what you also need to ask is:
- are any of the coaches performing significantly better with their zero RR teams than with their other teams? |
Answer just above and answer is obviously no.
| Quote: | | - are there any examples of where the TS is clearly wrong, assuming competant coaches |
No proof of this. 0 reroll teams are still very dependent on luck.
Assuming the leader exploit fixed, who can tell how well top-class coaches would perform? Two early double skulls can ruin one's tactic. Even if he dominate other games. It's like remembering more unluck than luck streaks. Those team plays on luck. And when luck is ok, they are game winners. When luck is away, they have no way to stabilize the team.
| Quote: | | - how many coaches are actually using zero RR teams... I'm betting not that many, certainly not 10%, thus its something of a suprise that there is even one successful team out of the 10 treborius listed |
Irrelevant: If you deny my stats by simply saying: If there were 1000 teams, the stats could be more accurate, than actually, nobody can ever prove you wrong.
-It's overpowered
-No look this
-Nope insuffisent data, it's overpowered
-But what if you look this?
-Insuffisent data, hence it's still overpowered...
| Quote: | | - how are the zero RR teams doing overall, standard teams with fine coaches might be better equipped to achieve the stunning 80%+ win rates but overall standard teams will get a 50% win rate... is that true for zero RR teams? What I'm getting at is that zero RR teams might be better equipped in general to get a 60%+ win rate but just arent able to push it too much higher than that. Hope this point makes sense. |
There's a point where, when you don't have a real database to compare stuff, you do how you can.
I see teams in line with the coach skill, where there 0 rerolls teams are doing as well as the rest. So I get the feeling that it is approximatively fine. By the way, I would say that there should be a rebate when you get high in number of rerolls too, as you don't need for exemple, 8 rerolls.
As those coaches seems to do as well as their teams with rerolls, then it means that both plays similar strengthed matchups. There might be a problem with leader and chiefs.
Hence I think that a rebate makes sense. I don't know if -5/-10 are the correct numbers. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:18 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | Frankenstein has 64% and is currently at 6/0/4 |
Of which 2 wins were against the same halfling team! |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:39 |
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@Shadow
Thanks for the plug... and for pointing out that I'm speaking from experience rather than prejudice. Btw, I said 5TS, not 2.
Re skulltaker's dorfs.. you're mixing multiple things. He's got only 11 players which helps keep TS down. And Dorfs start with a lot of skills and have a simple bash & grind approach that's perceived as dull. I can certainly see a weaker coach taking them to maximize his chances. Or are weak coaches who aren't losing enough annoying you?
It should come as no surprise that teams are going to optimize for TS in B instead of TR like in R. So kindly drop the "what if new coaches have to face this" stuff.
Recost 0-reoll rebate and leader per Sillysod. |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 16:46 |
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| SillySod wrote: |
- how are the zero RR teams doing overall, standard teams with fine coaches might be better equipped to achieve the stunning 80%+ win rates but overall standard teams will get a 50% win rate... is that true for zero RR teams? What I'm getting at is that zero RR teams might be better equipped in general to get a 60%+ win rate but just arent able to push it too much higher than that. Hope this point makes sense.
|
i agree, that the statistics provided fail to (even statistically ) prove the one or the other side and that further data-analysis would be required.
i think a very good test would be to compare 0 RR- teams by coaches who coach the same race with more than 0 RR (the only example i know of is Westerner).
that way you'd incorporate coaching-skills and race-specifics into the comparison (as long as the teams are both played in Black-Box and one isn't much older than the other one).
sadly however, we all don't have access to the DB to efficiently query some of that data, but depend on manual data-gathering, hence the poor quality of the analysis, so far 
the point, however, remains: you can't judge on this one based on very limited data.
(and providing just one team as a basis of your judgement is just at the most extreme end of scale as far as substance is concerned) |
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