James_Probert
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 21:53 |
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the bottom paragraph is what really counts from my post, that's our benchmark (assuming the catcher has the ball already, no QS, no Blizzard, no Blitz, no TAR)
@Maysrill, I think you can do it such that you're double pushing, and hence are clear from the LOS when your catcher starts running. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 21:57 |
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MadTias wrote: | CircularLogic wrote: | I feel the MadTias2 is especially easy to crack. |
Yea, I worked through my setups at work today. They are surprisingly easy to crack! Just shows that I haven't given this pretty important topic enough attention in my 2000 games.
Actually, having spent some time on this today, I couldn't find a set-up that was better than "3 on the LOS, rest in the back". Nothing I came up with forced harder dodges than into 2TZ-1TZ-0TZ, like that one does. My current analysis is that a rookie team might as well set up "3 on the LOS, rest in the back". Give me a SF and a couple of Guard and Tackle though... |
I'm sure a couple of the suggestions already here are better than that - I'm convinced collectively we can produce better. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 22:02 |
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DukeTyrion wrote: | I sometimes use;
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
Works quite well for me with a couple of guards in among them. |
James, any chance of a numerical analysis of this one please?
(After you finish your cup of team that is) |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 22:06 |
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Also, after looking at one of the other setups I wonder if it's worth tweaking mine to be;
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
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James_Probert
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 22:09 |
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DukeTyrion wrote: | DukeTyrion wrote: | I sometimes use;
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
Works quite well for me with a couple of guards in among them. |
James, any chance of a numerical analysis of this one please?
(After you finish your cup of team that is) |
I need a method to take it out before i can start analysing it, I was just using goo's proposed method against the basic defence, and don't forget, this is assuming rookie teams on both sides, so no guard anywhere! I could see it being effective as orcs with a few BOBs on the line, to make a hard first hit though...
but right now we are assuming St3 linemen on the line. |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 23:04 |
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DukeTyrion wrote: | Also, after looking at one of the other setups I wonder if it's worth tweaking mine to be;
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
I think this is as good as it gets for the "standard case" - but I have no numbers to back it. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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  Posted:
Jun 01, 2010 - 23:12 |
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DukeTyrion wrote: | Also, after looking at one of the other setups I wonder if it's worth tweaking mine to be
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
Setup:
I denominate people that move with A, B etc., the blocking players with numbers, * is the guy that runs for the score and P is the guy getting pushed around.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X 1 * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ P X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
OK, to crack that I need:
1) Block with push or POW.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X _ * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ P 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
2) After A moves, the blitz from #2 needs to be a push.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X P * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
3) #3 blocks for a push:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
4) B Moves:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
5) #4 blocks. A POW is sufficient, though a Push is what we want:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
6) #5 block with push or POW:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X P | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
Then it's 3+ dodge, 2+ dodge and a GFI. |
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Cyrus-Havoc
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 14:38 |
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This was recommended to me when I first started on Fumbbl to make the pushes hard. But I am not good at working out how hard it is to defeat. I have used it fairly successfully on tabletop when I can remember to do it right!
Code: | ----|x-x-x-x|----
--xx|-------|xx--
----|-x-x-x-|---- |
I also wonder if the key is to make the push more difficult, or to try and force more or harder dodge rolls? |
_________________ Not Undead but perhaps the oldest living coach! |
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p4m
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 15:07 |
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CircularLogic wrote: |
Setup:
I denominate people that move with A, B etc., the blocking players with numbers, * is the guy that runs for the score and P is the guy getting pushed around.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X 1 * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ P X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
OK, to crack that I need:
1) Block with push or POW.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X _ * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ P 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
2) After A moves, the blitz from #2 needs to be a push.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X P * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
3) #3 blocks for a push:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
4) B Moves:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
5) #4 blocks. A POW is sufficient, though a Push is what we want:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
6) #5 block with push or POW:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X P | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
Then it's 3+ dodge, 2+ dodge and a GFI. |
you can even improve that pattern, so you dont have to make 3 1d blocks but just once.
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 Y _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B C 1 * 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ P X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
so you can do assists in step 5) and 6)
5)
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ Y _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ C 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
5a) move Y
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ C 3 4 5 Y | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
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6) #5 block with push or POW:
Code: |
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ C 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X P | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |
and it's 2+2+2+ |
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JockMcRowdy
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 16:41 |
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excellent thread guys, something intriguing to read through for the first time in....long.
i tend to use (below) as a standard, but may rethink it now, lets see how it goes
_ _ _ _ | _ X _ X _ X _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _MORE LINE....
X _ X _ | X _ X _ X _ X | _ X _ X
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
--------------------------------------------
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
I used to find this quite effective, but could prove costly on players, and was possibly rubbish
_ _ _ _ | _ X _ X _ X _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ X _ X _ X _ | X _ _ _ |
_________________ The White Isle League is by far the best Blood Bowl league in the world. FACT!
If you are interested in joining please get in touch. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 16:54 |
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p4m:
It is a 3+ dodge, as the first dodge is into 1 TZ. As it was late, I didn't check for 2d blocks or 1d blocks besides the 2 initial ones, but as the play doesn't utilize the full 10 players, you can place assists where you think you need them. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 16:56 |
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JockMcRowdy wrote: |
I used to find this quite effective, but could prove costly on players, and was possibly rubbish
_ _ _ _ | _ X _ X _ X _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ X _ X _ X _ | X _ _ _ |
As you can easily block down the center guy and then push on of the sides this setup probably fails pretty hard. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 17:39 |
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p4m wrote: | you can even improve that pattern, so you dont have to make 3 1d blocks but just once. |
If my maths is right, that play has a 17.7% chance of success with a re-roll (assuming the ball is already in the hands of the appropriate, AG4 player). Or down at 5%ish without a re-roll. |
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p4m
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 17:41 |
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CircularLogic wrote: | p4m:
It is a 3+ dodge, as the first dodge is into 1 TZ. As it was late, I didn't check for 2d blocks or 1d blocks besides the 2 initial ones, but as the play doesn't utilize the full 10 players, you can place assists where you think you need them. |
not that bad to have 2d blocks if you gonna check for the possibilty, is it?!
and cant see that 3+ dodge, as there is no TZ...
Edit: oh there... the bar tricked my eyes... ok 3+ than
but i agree the Ssetup of JockMcRowdy isnt the best... the sidelines are completly open... |
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Timlagor
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
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  Posted:
Jun 02, 2010 - 21:52 |
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it seems clear to me that the standard case is only a starting point for this. If it's to be useful we must have considerations of teams with skills and Stat-boosts. |
_________________ Time for a new .sig |
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