Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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 Posted:
May 14, 2016 - 23:22 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: |
| Catalyst32 wrote: |
The Catcher... really doesn't need any skills but Dodge, Sure Hands or either Block or Wrestle would be nice.
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What?!
The Catcher absolutely needs Block, Dodge, Side Step (for safer side line half cages).
I tried the Wrestle, Dodge, Dauntless build as well.
2+ Leap and a potential 1 die Block on the ball carrier with Wrestle is nice. |
No. He really doesn't need any skills to do his primary jobs.
His jobs include being mobile enough to provide assists for Blocks and Blitzes by Dodging and/or Leaping on a 2+. His jobs include Catching Handoffs, Making Quick Passes and Picking Up the Ball on a 2+.
He can do all of those things in Game 1.
I never said that he couldn't be BETTER with some skills. Of course he could be better.
And I never said the other players couldn't be better with more skills.
But to do what you really need for them to be able to do Catchers don't need any skills... and the rest of the team only needs 1 skill. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 15, 2016 - 03:52 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: |
| Catalyst32 wrote: |
The Catcher... really doesn't need any skills but Dodge, Sure Hands or either Block or Wrestle would be nice.
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What?!
The Catcher absolutely needs Block, Dodge, Side Step (for safer side line half cages).
I tried the Wrestle, Dodge, Dauntless build as well.
2+ Leap and a potential 1 die Block on the ball carrier with Wrestle is nice. |
No. He really doesn't need any skills to do his primary jobs.
His jobs include being mobile enough to provide assists for Blocks and Blitzes by Dodging and/or Leaping on a 2+. His jobs include Catching Handoffs, Making Quick Passes and Picking Up the Ball on a 2+.
He can do all of those things in Game 1.
I never said that he couldn't be BETTER with some skills. Of course he could be better.
And I never said the other players couldn't be better with more skills.
But to do what you really need for them to be able to do Catchers don't need any skills... and the rest of the team only needs 1 skill. |
The problem is: all Slann players desperately lack core skills, they need to have some skills to be reliable enough.
Yes, they can dodge, leap or pick up with a 2+, but if something goes wrong during the turn and the rr is already used suddenly your Catcher is in trouble.
By the way you didn't specify in your first sentence "to do his primary jobs".
You specified that later. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
May 15, 2016 - 11:36 |
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| morehouse wrote: | | I recently started mine with 2 blitzers and 2 catchers and haven't lost yet 8 games in. However if I was starting over I would probably favor more catchers and fewer or no blitzers. The main thing you want to use a blitzer for, getting your one hit a turn or going for that leap to the ball, a lino can do just about as well and is far cheaper. The catchers on the other hand are a HUGE help. Having +2 leaps on a tv100 team makes Slann one of the best offensive teams in the game right off the bat. Also at low tv the ball tends to end up on the ground a lot, making the catchers great on defense too. |
Why would you want to use your Slann Blitzer this way when he is designed to be used in another way?
I think way too many coaches are seeing that this guy is labeled a "Blitzer" and assume that means he is the guy who Blitzes. That is the case on most rosters and it can be the case with Slann... but it seems to me a player with Diving Tackle should be man-marking (or space eating) and not risking his tackle zones on a failed Leap.
It seems to me that a player that costs 110K shouldn't be risking his health on a 3+ Leap into a cage wherein even if he succeeds he is still in the middle of a cage waiting for some Black Orc to lay the smack down on him followed by a gang foul. That seems like dirty work to me... Lineman work.
To me a player with Jump Up should be man-marking so that if he is knocked down he can Jump Up and Block. OR that player can reposition himself using his full MA to help in setting the trap for next turn. To me a player with easy access to Guard needs to be in contact with opponents... a player with maybe Blodge and Side Step is a man marker.
Blitzer? Yeah... he can do that... so can the Linemen and the Catchers. But he is so much better doing what he was actually made to do.
Blitzer? The name doesn't really fit the player to me. |
Last edited by Catalyst32 on %b %15, %2016 - %11:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
May 15, 2016 - 11:51 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Catalyst32 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: |
| Catalyst32 wrote: |
The Catcher... really doesn't need any skills but Dodge, Sure Hands or either Block or Wrestle would be nice.
|
What?!
The Catcher absolutely needs Block, Dodge, Side Step (for safer side line half cages).
I tried the Wrestle, Dodge, Dauntless build as well.
2+ Leap and a potential 1 die Block on the ball carrier with Wrestle is nice. |
No. He really doesn't need any skills to do his primary jobs.
His jobs include being mobile enough to provide assists for Blocks and Blitzes by Dodging and/or Leaping on a 2+. His jobs include Catching Handoffs, Making Quick Passes and Picking Up the Ball on a 2+.
He can do all of those things in Game 1.
I never said that he couldn't be BETTER with some skills. Of course he could be better.
And I never said the other players couldn't be better with more skills.
But to do what you really need for them to be able to do Catchers don't need any skills... and the rest of the team only needs 1 skill. |
The problem is: all Slann players desperately lack core skills, they need to have some skills to be reliable enough.
Yes, they can dodge, leap or pick up with a 2+, but if something goes wrong during the turn and the rr is already used suddenly your Catcher is in trouble.
By the way you didn't specify in your first sentence "to do his primary jobs".
You specified that later. |
What I am saying is that Slann DO NOT need tons of skills. That is not true. Maybe YOUR PLAYSTYLE requires them to have tons of skills. But mine does not.
Give me a Krox with Guard... a rookie Catcher... and 9 or 10 other Frogs (Lineman or Blitzer) with Wrestle (or Block on a few) and I have a team that can win any game. That's all that is needed. Anything else is just extra.
Of course it would be great to have a Legend or a +AG guy to help... but it is not a necessity. It would be nice if you had a Developed Killer and a Developed Ball Carrier and a Specialized Uber Sacker and a few Guards with Blodge, Side Step and Fend etc. But all you need is the threat of a 3+ Leaping sack with Wrestle from 9 directions, good positioning, a reroll (and you have it because you used my starting roster), and then a 2+ pickup from that rookie Catcher to get the job done. That is what wins. The rest is just for grins. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 15, 2016 - 14:24 |
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Well, my playstyle aims to have a better win rate than 33% with Slann.
Anyway, I never talked about having tons of skills, just some core skills here and there, especially on key players.
If you have blocking reliability you can save rerolls for trying that 3+ leap, or, if you fail the leap and you have to use the reroll for that action, then having Wrestle will help to sack the ball carrier.
If you fail to pick up the ball with a Catcher, you use a rr, then having Dodge increases a lot the chance of running away.
Slann quite often have to perform 1 die actions, skills help a lot. |
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oozeboss
Joined: Mar 06, 2016
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| Posted:
May 19, 2016 - 19:30 |
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I am clearly doing something hideously wrong - well, more likely a whole lot of things, obviously. 
My team, in its various incarnations, has kicked off with a record of 1 - 0 - 6 in ranked and league play, being outscored 6 against 16, and losing the casualty count 2 against 20. And that sole bright spot was a 2 turn forfeit, after I got a blitz on the opening kick off and scored on my first turn.
I have been beaten up - quite literally - by Goblin and Halfling teams (the latter killed 2 players and crippled another without ever fouling), and although there have been some glaring anomalies with dice (one example only: in one game I failed 54.55% of 3+ rolls), I am obviously screwing up something chronic.
I would really appreciate the wiser and more talented members of this conversation giving me some ideas about starting offensive and defensive formations and tactics.
As a context, I am attempting to run the Catcher only build (although after 2 games, my League team is down to 1 Catcher + 5 non-Journeyfrog Linefrogs).
(And I won't be in the least offended if the suggestion is made that I give up on the whole idea and upgrade to Flings -  ). |
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Everybody loves an Underfrog!
Last edited by oozeboss on %b %19, %2016 - %19:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2016 - 19:34 |
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@oozeboss
OK, you are 30 games into your FUMBBL career. I think you should focus on playing more stable teams like Orcs, Dorfs, Humans and Dark Elfs.
Get your skills up to speed, figure out this game and how it is played on FUMBBL and then revisit slann.
In less you like hitting your head against a brick wall for your first 200 matches.
BTW...That is how I did it when I first joined. I think my head stopped hurting around match 500. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
May 19, 2016 - 19:38 |
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I'd imagine you'd benefit a lot from a Krox - you pretty much need one if you're running multiple catchers as the ST loss across the team means you will be out-bashed.
Yes, even by gobbos, 2x mb on the trolls (who get 3d on a catcher) and the gobs inherent dodge can really swing things.
[edit] I watched some replays. You are rolling far, far too many dice, and playing extremely aggressively with a side that is not equipped for protracted base-to-base blocking, nor for dodging away reliably.
As said, with a large contingent of catchers, and no blitzers (therefore less ST3, less av8, no diving tackle, no jump up) you really are not equipped to go right after the ball every turn. You have to pick your opportunities.
And basing everyone when they can dodge away to setup chain-blocks more easily than you is not going to help either. Even stunties can deal with st2 catchers quite comfortably. I'm always happy when a team like yours bases all my goblins, it means more than just the troll gets to block, but more importantly, it means even if I do nothing, you are rolling (blockless) dice next turn just to move/block. |
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Last edited by ArrestedDevelopment on %b %19, %2016 - %20:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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oozeboss
Joined: Mar 06, 2016
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| Posted:
May 19, 2016 - 19:38 |
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Context: I have been playing Blood Bowl quite successfully since the early 90's, usually with bashy or stunty teams. I have been gaming since 1975, and have won a bucketload of tournaments in WHFB and other games.
I prefer being challenged to playing point + click, and once went 3-1-4 at a tournament with treeless Halflings (the highlight being a 4-0 flogging of a Humie team, with a solitary Fling killing Zug in a one on one Block).
I am new to FUMBBL, but definitely not to the actual game. |
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Everybody loves an Underfrog! |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2016 - 19:49 |
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| oozeboss wrote: |
I am new to FUMBBL, but definitely not to the actual game. |
FUMBBL is a totally unique Blood Bowl universe. You can come over to my house and I will pull out my 1st ED Blood Bowl game and we will re live the memories. I have been playing since the mid 80's.
Trust me. Nothing outside of FUMBBL has prepared you for the environment you will find here. |
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Comish of the: |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
May 20, 2016 - 00:06 |
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| oozeboss wrote: |
I am new to FUMBBL, but definitely not to the actual game. |
If you are new to FUMBBL... you are new to the game.
There are several coaches here that have played a single one of their teams in more games than you have played in your life. True experts.
There are basic fundamentals of the game AS IT IS PLAYED HERE that you will not encounter anywhere else unless you run up against a coach that plays here regularly.
Trust us. We all thought that we knew how to play this game when we 1st got here too. And then reality set in after being out-coached on a regular basis. Personally I wasn't being out-coached anywhere before I found this place.
Have you read the sticky threads in the tactics section yet? You might find quite a bit of useful knowledge there (though some of it is outdated LRB4 stuff). |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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| Posted:
May 20, 2016 - 01:39 |
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NickNutria
Joined: Jul 25, 2006
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| Posted:
May 20, 2016 - 04:23 |
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@oozeboss I watched some of your replays and I have to admit: yes, you're doing something hideously wrong. The way you're playing, you'll get outbashed by any team of any coach any time. Slann share a problem that quite a few starting teams have: they have no core skills, no block, no dodge and no tackle.
You're marking every opponent player even when you've got only few players. This is simply asking for trouble. Your opponent gets 4-5 two dice blocks every turn against unskilled players. The success of the opponent taking you down is 75% with block skill and around 50% without. Sooner or later av7 or av8 breaks. You might play that way, if you play orcs, dwarfs or amazons, but not slann. Why do you take catchers instead of blitzers, if you like marking so much?
Your second problem: you're leaping much too much, leaping with your linefrogs 1/3 failure, your catchers 1/6 failure. Doesn't sound much? Every third (linefrogs) or sixth leap (catchers) is a failure. A leap is just the slann way of dodging, try not to dodge, don't leap, if it isn't absolutely necessary.
Leaping is nice, if you can free the ball in a wardancer-style: 1 die block in a cage. But even this only succeds 1/9 of the time.
The last advice: try to hold on to your team. With skills like dodge,block,tackle or wrestle, your team will get better. |
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oozeboss
Joined: Mar 06, 2016
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| Posted:
May 20, 2016 - 09:30 |
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I appreciate the honesty.
Thanks. |
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Everybody loves an Underfrog! |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
May 20, 2016 - 14:22 |
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Oozeboss, this bit here on the first page is something that applies here 
| Purplegoo wrote: | | It’s often overlooked quite how fragile Slann are, especially in the early days. Yes, they have AV8, but consider that you have no survival skills off the bat. No Block, Wrestle, Dodge. If you are not careful, your AV8 players will be suffering several blocks a turn, and with every escape a 3+, sometimes you might have to stand everyone up for them to get hit again, which isn’t good. Consider your positioning, and take contact very seriously. Try very hard to dictate tempo with Slann; if the other guy is in control and you are reacting to him, your numbers will thin quickly. Yes, every turn you have a simple 3+ to hit the ball, but that 3+ should be one of your options, along with defending more passively. When you’re reduced to one plan, that plan is orders of magnitude less threatening. |
The other thing to think about other than when that 2/3+ is necessary is when it is necessary to reroll that 2/3+. I noticed in replays you almost always used a reroll on a fail - now whether that was because the fail came early in a turn, or because you felt it was necessary is something only you will know, but with Slann, even with 4+ rerolls, you are still going to have to think carefully about move order and which actions are actually worth rerolling.
I'd recommend watching replays of Wreckage and Happygrue's teams to see that apply to both catcher and blitzer based Slann (especially Wreckage's last game with Mugiwara11, which will probably make you feel better about your own dice).
Also think carefully about your movement - I noticed in some games you make completely unnecessary dodges - moving into contact with a player en route to moving into space at the beginning of turns.
And lastly be very, very careful with your formations at kick-offs: you have no Krox, and either average or lower than average ST depending on opponent, if you line up with players on the line in the widezones, while you have a faster attack, blitz! or perfect defence will leave you floundering at worst and rolling unnecessary dice at best. |
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