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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 02:08 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Man, I wish one of you malcontents had won more than 3 official tournaments over your tenure here so that the complaint of 'uneven playing field' had some sort of basis. As is, I think I only saw 2 Box tourney wins among the whole of those thinking this is the end of BB.


What does the number of tournaments that we've won have to do with any of this?


You're not going to like my answer one bit.
DrPoods



Joined: Nov 14, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 02:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I would.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 02:56 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
JellyBelly wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Man, I wish one of you malcontents had won more than 3 official tournaments over your tenure here so that the complaint of 'uneven playing field' had some sort of basis. As is, I think I only saw 2 Box tourney wins among the whole of those thinking this is the end of BB.


What does the number of tournaments that we've won have to do with any of this?


You're not going to like my answer one bit.


"I've played in way more tournaments than you have, JellyBelly, so I'm much more qualified to comment on the FUMBBL tournament scene than you are ..."

Is that really where we're going with this, mrt? Surely you can do better than that? Wink

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 04:28 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
JellyBelly wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Man, I wish one of you malcontents had won more than 3 official tournaments over your tenure here so that the complaint of 'uneven playing field' had some sort of basis. As is, I think I only saw 2 Box tourney wins among the whole of those thinking this is the end of BB.


What does the number of tournaments that we've won have to do with any of this?


You're not going to like my answer one bit.


"I've played in way more tournaments than you have, JellyBelly, so I'm much more qualified to comment on the FUMBBL tournament scene than you are ..."

Is that really where we're going with this, mrt? Surely you can do better than that? Wink


It is better than that, way better.

1. You are taking yourself out of a tourney winning cognitive mode by assuming you are behind the pack in both team and coaching ability. One more hurdle to overcome.

2. You are placing excessive importance on the team being more important than the coach when it comes to tourney glory. There are some qualifiers to that like, of course Ogres and Gobbos will have a tough go of it in any tourney but if we assume that every coach is bringing their best shot at the tourney (and why wouldn't you?) why do the same coaches routinely perform better over and over again despite a shifting profile of their teams and teams entered into tourneys? Obviously we can't see how X coach would do with Y coaches teams in a tourney setting but it is beyond mere coincidence that the same coaches rise to the top and others do not.

3. Taking point 2 into consideration, what do you think explains your tourney output? You've been outplayed? Your team couldn't cut it? Repeated bad luck? Humble yourself little bit when thinking of the answer.

4. Okay, so what does merging the divisions do perceptively? Assuming Ranked teams at their best are better than Box (dubious) teams at their best and take less input to get to peak form (again, dubious), basically it would seem to make an already slim prospect even more slim. How so? A coach of similar aptitude from Ranked will have a better team than yourself. That seems unfair, right?

And here is where you're not going to like it - your odds in a 128 seed tourney are already remote. I know this by looking at the SR and your tally of outright wins.

Okay, so lets say you just like the opportunity to see how far you go and it isn't all about winning, the journey matters as well. Well you perceive this journey will be on a harder gradient and to that I say, good, it'll be cooler if you do triumph. Well it's not fair, to which I say...how the hell do you know?

There are a few things that I don't think you're considering when it comes to Ranked teams and coaches.

1. Teams aren't built with the same specs in mind as Box - some portion of team build winds up being custom tailored to expected offers for games. I previously provided two examples of Helf teams that are both giant but one is obviously more well rounded than the other and it's because it resides in Box. If I had taken a compliment of skills best suited for tourney competitiveness in Ranked, I wouldn't have nearly had the same opportunity to build the team. Ranked has a weak circuit breaker to building where the more dangerous people perceive your team (whether thats CAS or straight up winning), the less games you can possibly play. Even among top coaches this dynamic happens where two equally skilled coaches will avoid one another because of the perceived threat even if to an outside observer it seems like a great match and mutually beneficial to the ends of building a tourney ready team.

2. Some really good coaches can build in either environment and do. Diversify your portfolio, profit. You're only hurting yourself by refusing to embrace the ability to have 5 or 6 teams tourney ready teams at any given moment by collecting all your experience into 1 or 2 teams in one division. Why do I have two pimped teams in two different divisions? Cause I actually took a break with them and didn't collect all the negative outcomes into them and feel imposed upon by the peril of building.

3. The average Ranked coach with a pimped team doesn't know their weaknesses and struggle against their peers if they've done the building on the back of picking specific matchups against lesser coaches with lesser teams. In many cases the worst of the worst when it comes to Ranked don't even play tourneys because they know they'd be exposed and their racket is fluffy ego indulgence.

4. Coaches better than you will prosper no matter what is happening at the sausage factory. In general they'll keep their studs studly, build more of them, and identify the division that aligns with their goals and the racket they exploit best. Coaches with more time on their hands will in most cases have a marginally better team than you at TV parity (but as I showed above with my Whalelf Baller team - that runs into snags when you up the opportunities to get screwed up)[This is also why TV caps on tourneys don't make a lick of difference]. Resistance to merging seems almost wholly predicated on being smacked in the face with the dwindling prospects of success in a tourney, already meager in themselves, which makes this pouting itself laughable and adorable.

You're acting like your already long odds to enjoy tourney success are dampened by the merge. You think that when the dust settles we'll see a bunch of new faces leading the pack in the tourney scene (how wouldn't that be a good thing?) or are you just anticipating more one and dones from yourself and other Box coaches?

If it's the latter, oh my god, learn to play better, build more efficiently in regards to SPP and Skills on a per game basis (not whatever nonsense The Book of Dakka says about maintaining an illusory TV for stacking the deck in your favor in Bowlbot paired matches), and identify the tools you really need to give it your best shot in a tourney. You aren't too late to the game to do this but you really have to get out of your own mental prison of expected bad outcomes or unfair situations to do it.

And please try to understand some of the changes in meta spurred by BB2016 - you might find out that they make a lot of the nonsense you're cowering in fear of irrelevant. I have.
tmoila



Joined: Nov 25, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 04:40 Reply with quote Back to top

So what action is required from me (or any coach) because of this change?

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 04:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Dude, I haven't got time to respond in detail to your post right now, unfortunately, as I'm actually supposed to be packing for a flight at 7am tomorrow (lol), but you're so far off base it's not even funny. My competency as a coach and/or odds of winning tourneys has nothing to do with my motivations here, whatsoever.

Good lord ...

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 04:48 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
Dude, I haven't got time to respond in detail to your post right now, unfortunately, as I'm actually supposed to be packing for a flight at 7am tomorrow (lol), but you're so far off base it's not even funny. My competency as a coach and/or odds of winning tourneys has nothing to do with my motivations here, whatsoever.

Good lord ...


Well then, thanks for ruling out the possibility that fairness of opposition was anything but a canard to you.

I'm left with the impression that keeping the divisions separate is furthered for the purpose of maintaining a personal sense of order and harmony. That's not very compelling stuff.


Last edited by mrt1212 on Jan 13, 2018 - 04:58; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 04:50 Reply with quote Back to top

tmoila wrote:
So what action is required from me (or any coach) because of this change?


Zip.
tmoila



Joined: Nov 25, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 04:54 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
tmoila wrote:
So what action is required from me (or any coach) because of this change?


Zip.


pronoun
pronoun: zip; pronoun: zippo

1.
North American informal
nothing at all.
"you got zip to do with me and my kind, buddy"

I had a difficulty of understanding, so thought I'd share this informatic with the rest of the site who are not from across the pond.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 05:40 Reply with quote Back to top

BOX PRIDE read this.
It is what I have been saying but laid out by someone that bothered to think through his answer.

In the tournament the guy from Ranked is ALSO locked into his path to the Championship.
He can't go back to pimp his team once it starts if he keeps winning.
And BOX coaches can always always PIMP and PARK their teams once they get tournament ready too.

You BOX coaches come in with all the ready for anything experience.
You come in as dangerous animals in a cage VS some pansy Elves.
And I hear how you whine about pimped Elves from Ranked... and yet the Bashers you can only build in BOX should be able to rip those Elves to bits.

BUT MOST OF YOU DON"T BOTHER TO GET ANY TACKLE.
So you show up to a Paper fight without any Scissors... just Rocks and then you complain about how Paper is OP.
Well... RO SHAM BO SHAME on you.

This post brought to you by the TACKLE Skill.

TACKLE... ripping the legs off of Elves since Nuffle 1st appeared to teach us his glorious game.


mrt1212 wrote:

It is better than that, way better.

1. You are taking yourself out of a tourney winning cognitive mode by assuming you are behind the pack in both team and coaching ability. One more hurdle to overcome.

2. You are placing excessive importance on the team being more important than the coach when it comes to tourney glory. There are some qualifiers to that like, of course Ogres and Gobbos will have a tough go of it in any tourney but if we assume that every coach is bringing their best shot at the tourney (and why wouldn't you?) why do the same coaches routinely perform better over and over again despite a shifting profile of their teams and teams entered into tourneys? Obviously we can't see how X coach would do with Y coaches teams in a tourney setting but it is beyond mere coincidence that the same coaches rise to the top and others do not.

3. Taking point 2 into consideration, what do you think explains your tourney output? You've been outplayed? Your team couldn't cut it? Repeated bad luck? Humble yourself little bit when thinking of the answer.

4. Okay, so what does merging the divisions do perceptively? Assuming Ranked teams at their best are better than Box (dubious) teams at their best and take less input to get to peak form (again, dubious), basically it would seem to make an already slim prospect even more slim. How so? A coach of similar aptitude from Ranked will have a better team than yourself. That seems unfair, right?

And here is where you're not going to like it - your odds in a 128 seed tourney are already remote. I know this by looking at the SR and your tally of outright wins.

Okay, so lets say you just like the opportunity to see how far you go and it isn't all about winning, the journey matters as well. Well you perceive this journey will be on a harder gradient and to that I say, good, it'll be cooler if you do triumph. Well it's not fair, to which I say...how the hell do you know?

There are a few things that I don't think you're considering when it comes to Ranked teams and coaches.

1. Teams aren't built with the same specs in mind as Box - some portion of team build winds up being custom tailored to expected offers for games. I previously provided two examples of Helf teams that are both giant but one is obviously more well rounded than the other and it's because it resides in Box. If I had taken a compliment of skills best suited for tourney competitiveness in Ranked, I wouldn't have nearly had the same opportunity to build the team. Ranked has a weak circuit breaker to building where the more dangerous people perceive your team (whether thats CAS or straight up winning), the less games you can possibly play. Even among top coaches this dynamic happens where two equally skilled coaches will avoid one another because of the perceived threat even if to an outside observer it seems like a great match and mutually beneficial to the ends of building a tourney ready team.

2. Some really good coaches can build in either environment and do. Diversify your portfolio, profit. You're only hurting yourself by refusing to embrace the ability to have 5 or 6 teams tourney ready teams at any given moment by collecting all your experience into 1 or 2 teams in one division. Why do I have two pimped teams in two different divisions? Cause I actually took a break with them and didn't collect all the negative outcomes into them and feel imposed upon by the peril of building.

3. The average Ranked coach with a pimped team doesn't know their weaknesses and struggle against their peers if they've done the building on the back of picking specific matchups against lesser coaches with lesser teams. In many cases the worst of the worst when it comes to Ranked don't even play tourneys because they know they'd be exposed and their racket is fluffy ego indulgence.

4. Coaches better than you will prosper no matter what is happening at the sausage factory. In general they'll keep their studs studly, build more of them, and identify the division that aligns with their goals and the racket they exploit best. Coaches with more time on their hands will in most cases have a marginally better team than you at TV parity (but as I showed above with my Whalelf Baller team - that runs into snags when you up the opportunities to get screwed up)[This is also why TV caps on tourneys don't make a lick of difference]. Resistance to merging seems almost wholly predicated on being smacked in the face with the dwindling prospects of success in a tourney, already meager in themselves, which makes this pouting itself laughable and adorable.

You're acting like your already long odds to enjoy tourney success are dampened by the merge. You think that when the dust settles we'll see a bunch of new faces leading the pack in the tourney scene (how wouldn't that be a good thing?) or are you just anticipating more one and dones from yourself and other Box coaches?

If it's the latter, oh my god, learn to play better, build more efficiently in regards to SPP and Skills on a per game basis (not whatever nonsense The Book of Dakka says about maintaining an illusory TV for stacking the deck in your favor in Bowlbot paired matches), and identify the tools you really need to give it your best shot in a tourney. You aren't too late to the game to do this but you really have to get out of your own mental prison of expected bad outcomes or unfair situations to do it.

And please try to understand some of the changes in meta spurred by BB2016 - you might find out that they make a lot of the nonsense you're cowering in fear of irrelevant. I have.
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 06:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Fumbbl Cup Finals:

2017: Ranked beats Ranked
2016: Box beats Ranked
2015: Box beats Ranked
2014: Box beats Ranked
2013: Ranked beats Ranked
2012: Ranked beats Box
2011: Box beats Box
almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 08:25 Reply with quote Back to top

It’s threads like this that make me glad I usually only play League.

Catalyst it looks like you just want the divisions merged so you get an autoscheduler in ranked and can switch between the modes. Is this right?
I don’t see how this will increase the number of people using that scheduler in your Timezone if there are already not enough people using the Box division in your Timezone. If no one is using it now In Box why would they use it in Ranked?

It also looks like there are a number of Box coaches that don’t want to have to play against Ranked teams because of the perception of picking and farming teams to be tournament ready. I understand this reasoning, but if I actually wanted to play in a major I personally wouldn’t care who I was playing.

Most coaches seem to be somewhere in between of this is a great idea or I don’t care enough to complain.

I do like that there will be less majors on FUMBBL. It makes me actually care about them a bit more and if I was able to play any games outside of my own time zones evening I would actually sign a team up.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 09:43 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
Fumbbl Cup Finals:

2017: Ranked beats Ranked
2016: Box beats Ranked
2015: Box beats Ranked
2014: Box beats Ranked
2013: Ranked beats Ranked
2012: Ranked beats Box
2011: Box beats Box


Most of those were before they nerfed CPOMB. Wink

In the last FC only two of the last eight were Box. Dodgy sample of course. Don't know how many of each entered.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

cata wants a single division with auto scheduler, and game finder, both available for all teams? (i scrolled past most of his text)

i think that's probably a good idea, and if the playerbase declines then some day it'll be needed

it's also just 1 sentence... no idea why he decided to make it into a multipage insane hate-rant
also not sure why this was the thread he needed to bring it up in.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 10:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
...not sure why this was the thread he needed to bring it up in.


If Box purity is not important enough to get it even one Box only Major, is it really so important that we need to split the user base with the two divisions?

Maybe the "pure only" guys fear that there are not enough "pure only" coaches to get them "pure only" games in a merged division.

I'd still have thought that we would have one "pure only" Major even if the divs were merged. At least until "pure only" died.

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