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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 04:58 Reply with quote Back to top

A tactical question here from a specific match. I recently lost a Lizardman match vs cdsassak's Dark Elves. The first half went reasonably well despite only a score of 1-1 after receiving as our hitting had meant we started the 2nd half 11 players vs 8.

But 2nd half a lone Elf went end to end and scored a winner! I only seemed to be able to get light marking on to him. Just wondering could I have pressured his carrier much better.

Of course more tackle would have helped. Or more pows 2nd half. More Break Tackle. Less Perfect Defence's for the Elves etc. I think 1 turn I missed doing a blitz.

But what would you have done in that 2nd half with the Elves receiving and spread out after a long kick?
Any specifics for particular turns?

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3973588

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Traul



Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

First of all, I would have set up a full defensive line blocking the sides. You spend the whole half chasing after the elves because four of them get into your unprotected back-field from both sides on turn 1. With a standard 443 defense, you can completely block the sides. With high strength on the scrimmage, there is a decent chance the elves fail to penetrate at all. But even if they do, at least they have to go through the center, then you have the speed to fall back from the sides and surround them.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 17:05 Reply with quote Back to top

They do have a lot of dodge to help then get through. But which is 443?

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Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 17:36 Reply with quote Back to top

While his elf is chilling at the back with the ball, you're now 11 v 7. Swamp the 7 and pick a target to remove each turn (by fouling if needed). As his options get less, you can then begin to pressure the carrier.
Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 18:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi garyt1!

First I think this match-up is in favor of DE, so it's normal if you don't win.
Also if DE don't snakes, they can't lose:) And here your opponent did not missed much dodges. That being said, I guess you posted here to have advices so let's see what you could have done better.

About being "reasonably well" at 11vs8 when DE receive in beginning of second half, it's debatable. I don't think you are that well: DE are receiving and can overcome a -3 situation, which leads to: why did you score so fast in first half? You did not try to ball control at all, you even had to risk 2 GFI to score.

Remark on the full match: you don't protect enough your skinks. And you could also use them to foul very expensive opposing players in first half. In turn 8 you exposed your one turner skink when you could have brought a Saurus here for example. And then you had to use your apo to keep him in the game.

About second half:
You should place your krox near a maximum of players, and possibly ag4 players (so prehensile tail has impact)

_turn 2 you blitz a DE player near one of your saurus to tag opponent ball carrier, I don't think it's a good idea: your saurus is too deep in the pitch, your opponent just need a 2+ to dodge, and you lost a block. You just need to have a saurus in position to blitz opponent ball carrier if opponent do not move his ball carrier
_turn 3: I would have tried to blitz the ball carrier here since he is along the side with no SS. You can bring skink #13 with 2 GFI then blitz with skink #12 with 2 gfi at one dice. It's 64% success chance with RR (thx to Elyoukey site Wink ), you have 3 RR, I think it worth it.
you should bring your Krox near DE #1 and #2 blitzers. Yes maybe you can roll 1 on bone head roll but it worth it here. the lineman #6 can be tagged with just a skink (the lineman has no skill).

_turn 4: you should blitz ball carrier before blocking with Krox, and reroll the blitz with a RR (you still have 3, we are already turn 4!)
your skink #13 could avoid this 3rd dodge through moving directly toward center of the pitch from the beginning (2 dodges only needed)
_turn 5: since you have 3 RR for 4 turns, I think I would have tried a blitz on ball carrier with Saurus #6, yes it's a 5+ dodge but you have RRs. 5+ dodge then GFI and 2D block with pow needed it's 43% chance with RR, a lot better than hoping opponent rolls a double 1 on dodge.
Of course before you bring back your saurus in opponent pitch and the Krox near DE #1 #2 #6 players.
you put your Krox near one AG5 lineman, instean of 2 (or 3) AG4 DE players.
on the block you should have pushed the #12 lineman toward the Krox (prehensile tail)

After the DE TD:
you have 3 turns to score: no need to put your players in the wings on the los, so in case of Perfect Defense, Saurus are not stuck there.
Also you should put less players in the center, and more on one single wing: you are losing now, so if your opponent score one more on blitz it does not matter anyway. You should try to cage on one side in opponent half directly on turn 6 if possible (aka if the ball is not too deep in your half)
turn 6: you should blitz lineelf #6 or #7 to open the center and send players there (even is saurus). Even if the cage is less safe, you have to take risks now.

turn 7: your Krox is not useful here, use it to stick to ennoying players. Blitzer #4 with tackle seems obvious target for Krox to me. Or at least you could put Krox in the cage to avoid the 3+ dodge 2D blitz like in the game. your saurus #3 one space closer of your ball carrier would have been better too.
your saurus #6 is also in useless position.

Well I hope this can help you, I hope I'm not wrong Laughing everybody is welcome to disagree to what I said Wink
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks guys. You are right about that first half turn 8 skink exposure. That was a stupid moment forgetting that the Delves at the back still had a turn. Some very good 2nd half suggestions Gartch. For the Krox movement, and also trying out some dodging blitzes as I had rrs, and setup. Great stuff. Certainly shows I could have done much better!

Malmir, interesting that you also wouldn't go after the carrier straight away. Makes sense against a coach who doesn't panic when the carrier is lightly threatened. Some folks would rush a pass off, but it is optimistic to expect that or a snaked dodge.

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A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes Gary,

A decent coach will not be put off by a 'mild' threat and will dodge accordingly (barring rubbish dice). Obviously, if you can raise the threat level to severe etc, then it is worth doing.
juck101



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 18, 2018 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I watched the first four turns and think you either need to stay put or chase with 3 players. attackign with just one is not enough. Lizards are easy to halt without BT so even 2 forward is easy to nulify.

The elf can just kite you around. You do have speed so ddont fool for it.

I think you need to either start the half with mb hits every turn on the non-blodgers or use tackle on a decent player. Personally I would remove the 2 linos with mb hits as that will stop them kiting eventually. They wont want to throw a long bomb so actually they want to run despite being more equiped than most to throw. If you use mb to hit or tackle then your blitzer needs at least one player around him to keep from getting chaffed by the blodgers.
t4 you had a hit on the ball and didnt reroll the pushes. Clearly you can see now you wont get better, so use the rr and go for a pow.
Also the krox can 3d which does remove dodges power to some degree. I wouldnt care for him, but hes plan B vs bloge.
Traul



Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2018 - 00:51 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
They do have a lot of dodge to help then get through. But which is 443?

https://fumbbl.com/help:Defensive+Setups
Section B is a good example, but more generally, it is any variation on:
-3 on the scrimmage line,
-4 on the second line to block the sides,
-4 on the third line behind the second line to close gaps that might come from the blitz.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2018 - 01:17 Reply with quote Back to top

One thing about the 4-4-3 is if skinks are on the back line then you may end up exposing the flank ones to a blitz. But I suppose it does mean if the interloping Elves attack there they will be stuck near one side.

Yep t4 I should have probably rerolled my blitz in the hope of a juicy pow on the carrier. Or done the 2 skink blitz t3.
And my Saurus Guard position turn 15 was terrible. Ha, what a disgrace.

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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2018 - 02:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi garyt1,

I'm unable to watch replays from this computer, but I had a look at the teams, the players, blocks thrown and dice stats and I have a few comments that are more general than anything else... Lizards are a great team and if you want to see how other people coach them look up other good coaches. I don't play much Ranked or any Box so can't suggest any coaches from there, but I do play SWL League; so I personally suggest looking up coach Faulcon and spectate a variety of his League matches with "Slumbering Skinks" he's played almost 500 matches with them against a very tough swag of teams, races and coaches. He has won SWL Premier League a number of times and for the most part, he plays Lizards very well. He had a bad run for several seasons due to player attrition

Tactically - Looking at your team and the one you played; there are two/three main threats you would like to remove from the opposing team lineup - these are your block, blitz and foul targets: The ST4, blodge+tackle Blitzer and the AG5, blodge line elf, secondary target is the tackle, block, mighty blow line elf... and as you only have one Tackle Saurus "Rio Grande" he's the Saurus you want tucked back a little so that you have the freedom of blitzing with him against your dodge targets on the elf side. He made 8 blocks over 16 turns, so I see that as 8 turns where you didn't use your most valuable hitter. You might have seen a different game if he had made 13-16 blocks throughout the game through knocking over blodge players and potentially removing them from the field, but at worst, more players down and more openings to move players through to pressure the ball. This comes down to more thoughtful player positioning on your turn to keep Rio Grande as a usable threat on your turn.

Secondly, your skinks are vulnerable and some are more valuable (especially AG4,SS); he should never be vulnerable to a blitz or getting marked by a tackle player. He can be protected by a soft screen of other skinks and/or Saurus. The diving tackle skink should also be protected and held in a good position where he can't be marked but he can be used to place a tackle zone on the ball carrier at a good moment. He's MA8, and MA10 on good dice rolls. This should be easy to achieve at the right moment... But he should also be supported by a Saurus or Krox marking the ball carrier so the blitz or block target is the DT skink and the ball carrier is kept in a tackle-zone at the end of the turn or is forced to make a dodge away (ideally your Rio Grande with the tackle skill or your Krox with the PT to make the dodge harder).

If you move your Krox, use him to tie up 2 players. I dislike moving big guys into contact with 3 players as it's easy for him to risk a 1D block, get the pushback, bothdown, defender stumbles or POW and then he frees up the other two players in one go. Better to force him to move in 1 or 2 players to get the assists and then make him throw the block as he has sacrificed field position to do that, or he is going to risk 3+ dodges to get away. Ideally, tie up elves that don't have dodge with the Krox so he either saves his RR and you force a turnover, or you force the RR burn. Either result is good.

You don't ever want to get your Saurus too far out of position on Defense, his team is MA6 or 7 and your Saurus are MA6; so make sure you are at worst level with his players, ideally in front of or one square back on Defense so that if he wants to blitz a hole and pour through, you can tie up his new screen or cage without having to make lots of GFI. Also don't be afraid to get your skinks into contact with the ball carrier at the right moment. But you'll probably want minimum 2 and they should be standing together so if he uses the ball carrier to blitz free, he still has to make a dodge to get clear.

Hope those ideas/comments are of use to you.

And I look at things from the other perspective - when I play against Lizards, my goal is to blitz a skink every turn. Ideally with my block, tackle, mighty blow player; at worst someone wit Block. I remove your skinks and then you're left with a team that has no agility and is easy to tie up. If you only have 1 or 2 skinks on the pitch I can contain them and force hits on them. Heck I've played Lizards once or twice where after I've scored he didn't have a single Skink to put back on the pitch. Scoring again at that point is pretty easy. So if you are a Lizard coach, make him work for the hits on the skink and/or use it to your advantage as bait at the right moment.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2018 - 05:17 Reply with quote Back to top

No time to watch your game. So this isn't tactical advice. But... it is Strategic Advice.

You appear to have neglected your Skinks leaving you EXPOSED to Elves.
MORE DIVING TACKLE on the Skinks!!!
Then place them within the protection of Saurus with both Man-marking the Elves.

The DEs have 1 man with the ball to protect.
So... you have 7 Bigguns vs the 7 protecting DEs.
You can lock down a few of those Elves with the Saurus/Skink Double Team.

Keep them in front of you and out of your Defensive Backfield.
Block them DOWN when they don't Dodge away. Watch them fall over when they DO.


NOTE: Not a Lizards EXPERT.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2018 - 05:40 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not a fan of using perfect D to put good players on the line merely to slightly slow the opponent's offence. Haven't been since I killed a superstar elf blitzer with my hobgoblin team in blackbox. Pow kills happen on the line, no free hits on good players.

Uh, quick score, OK, so you're playing for a turnover without any great turnover skills on your team, probably a big ask against a good coach with a stat loaded team. Pretty good pressure to give yourself the 1-turn shot, but you can still one-turn off that perfect D, have a look at it again. Not protecting Santo there for his T8 was bad, sort of a wasted Apo, have to check if it's your half.

Elves played the 2nd half pretty well given numbers, long walk down the open side as a switch play. After moving everyone else on T2, it's not your BT Saurus up the pitch, which is sad, but you can try a 5+ dodge. BT guy really needs to stay central as he's so much of your sacking capacity and elves can totally switch on you to keep away.

T4 you make a 3-dodge escape with a skink where 2-dodge was enough. Don't do that. Smile

They scored T6, which is fine. Perfect D here is better because slowing you for a turn actually does something. Your cage is slightly wrong, good that it's open a bit, but you need two skinks inside to force a 1d from the AG 5 or a very tricky path for a 2d. Obviously a lucky bounce for the elves, but you missed the possible 8d including 4d tackle on the ball holder your T8, gotta get those right, sure hand skink is in range and has RRs for everything.

Otherwise, in general, you're sort of chasing the elves, trying to box them in, rather than covering the ground they can move to. With so much stats they can just bust through anything of yours and you need to be where they're looking at going already. Ideally your non-BT Saurus should be able to free each other up, but tricky if the elves dodge all day.

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