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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2020 - 18:51 Reply with quote Back to top

More simply, Wildly Inaccurate could have scattered from the target's square, instead of the Thrower's square.
Then add that a Quick Pass is never Wildly Inaccurate (or scatters 1d3), a WI Short scatters 1d3+1, WI Long scatters 1d3+2, WI Long Bomb scatters 1d3+3.
More realistic and refined.
Another idea could be that players with Pass skill (which are generally specialist Throwers) never throw a Wildly Inaccurate pass. That would be nice too and would make the passing game more viable.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2020 - 19:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Naaa

Throwing was already more complex than it needed to be. It did not need any more effects than it already had. Wip is just a pointless addition to the game. Not needed in anyway, no point fixing it, just get rid .

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C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2020 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

If Wildly Inaccurate Pass was called Mega-Fumble it would seem more fitting. Yet somehow GW seem to think it's still better to WIP than Fumble
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2020 - 20:39 Reply with quote Back to top

The better question is how to make passing a viable strategy in a game of risk management and where running down the clock is a thing. Relying on a pass in the final turn simply is not viable in general.

Passing is a viable option as long as you have a turn or two to recover a failed or inaccurate pass.

The main issue is how to overcome the turn structure where scoring on the last turn is what you usually aim for.

In the best scenarios you only have one offensive drive to begin with and win 2-0 or even 3-0... but that is the best scenarios.

In my opinion this is why passing is problematic... now making passing even more unreliable is a bit odd. I get that they want it to be hard to get the ball away from a failed action. Dropping the ball with Elves around was almost always disastrous and it now is a bit less so. But dedicated thrower should not be so punished for it in my opinion.

The Pass skill could as suggested make WI into a normal Inaccurate result or the respective Accurate and Cannoneer could do it for those specific ranges to make Throwers specialized... that would boost those skill a bit more.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2020 - 20:48 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

The Pass skill could as suggested make WI into a normal Inaccurate result or the respective Accurate and Cannoneer could do it for those specific ranges to make Throwers specialized... that would boost those skill a bit more.

Yes. I suggested Pass because it's Throwers' default skill so they would be quite reliable out of the box.
jurisch



Joined: Jul 14, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 04:35 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
More simply, Wildly Inaccurate could have scattered from the target's square, instead of the Thrower's square.
Then add that a Quick Pass is never Wildly Inaccurate (or scatters 1d3), a WI Short scatters 1d3+1, WI Long scatters 1d3+2, WI Long Bomb scatters 1d3+3.
More realistic and refined.
Another idea could be that players with Pass skill (which are generally specialist Throwers) never throw a Wildly Inaccurate pass. That would be nice too and would make the passing game more viable.


That match with my second thought with one addition: if the thrower with the pass skill is marked he loose this benefit.

Then we have a game with a quarterback.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 05:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I like WIP as an idea for long pass / long bomb, rather than extra fumbles in place. I like the intercepts being less catches and more just scattering the ball too.

It works with the limit of +1 to passing from the various skills. It's just worse than current passing for pretty much everyone, and long bombing is already a bad deal! You can even control where a fumble drops on a long bomb attempt now to make it safer than an inaccurate pass.

If it was just modified results less than 1, you get it on 2 on long pass and 2-3 on long bomb, or only a 2 on long bomb with cannoneer, which, ultimately, is reasonable. Mostly a result shows up in multiple TZs then, which suits.

Your basic 2+ throwers being
    * 1: fumble.
    * 2-3: wild.
    * 4: inaccurate.
    * 5-6: accurate.

On a long bomb would be pretty much as good as AG 4 does up to now.

Works for the limit on free punts, makes that extra price on the new 2+ throwers worthwhile, just seems like what the rule should be, and gives a reason for PA 1+ to exist.

It still cuts out the 2+ long bomb possibility, top end elf throwers are still worse at that, which I presume is the goal, boost short human passing, nerf long elf throwing.

--

Maybe that'll be the errata? As much as I want to see messy passing from teams that aren't "supposed to" pass, it'd be nice if that bloody +10k on my Helf Thrower at least left me with the chance to get something like as good at passing. Sad

Eh, if I gotta quick pass and handoff, like some sort of rookie elf team, well, so be it.

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jurisch



Joined: Jul 14, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 07:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Good workaround. That can fix it mostly. What is unclear still: why is a fumble more worse than wildly unaccurate
Wolvassa



Joined: Dec 23, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 10:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, a fumble isn't worse than wildly inaccurate, but it doesn't really need to be from a rules perspective. That's how they wrote the fluff in the book, but they clearly didn't think about it in terms of managing risk so...
Having the worse result only really happen when you are marked or trying to throw it the length of the pitch, pretty much regardless of who the thrower is, makes more sense than it being a 1 in 6 every throw.

As an aside, it would be lovely if the rules were written in a way that made it clear the order of calculations and results, and which take priority, and which words were rule keywords (deviates)...
dabassman



Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 11:01 Reply with quote Back to top

jurisch wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
More simply, Wildly Inaccurate could have scattered from the target's square, instead of the Thrower's square.
Then add that a Quick Pass is never Wildly Inaccurate (or scatters 1d3), a WI Short scatters 1d3+1, WI Long scatters 1d3+2, WI Long Bomb scatters 1d3+3.
More realistic and refined.
Another idea could be that players with Pass skill (which are generally specialist Throwers) never throw a Wildly Inaccurate pass. That would be nice too and would make the passing game more viable.


That match with my second thought with one addition: if the thrower with the pass skill is marked he loose this benefit.

Then we have a game with a quarterback.



I would add that a WIP can ONLY occur if a player (any player, not just a thrower with pass) is marked. Otherwise it makes no sense that he can throw it backwards.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 12:29 Reply with quote Back to top

dabassman wrote:

I would add that a WIP can ONLY occur if a player (any player, not just a thrower with pass) is marked. Otherwise it makes no sense that he can throw it backwards.

That's a nice idea and sounds logical too.
Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 15:17 Reply with quote Back to top

So it should be: WI on a modified -1, instead of a modified 1
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 16:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Medon wrote:
So it should be: WI on a modified -1, instead of a modified 1


No. Its modified 1 or less. These people are just trying to invent a house rule that makes it less shit.

Though really the best house rule would be get rid of WI its just not needed

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 19:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Though really the best house rule would be get rid of WI its just not needed

When it was only a 1/6 I thought it was an interesting change for risk management.

Now it is 50% on a long bomb (or even 33% with Cannoneer) there is no reason to try except on the last turn of the drive; and it has to be the last turn not just your last turn to ensure the opponent does not have the option to capitalist on any mistakes.

The fact the new Safe Throw/Pass skill does not cancel WIP makes it even worse. That would have been a better change that it now only working on a natural one.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 22:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
Garion wrote:
Though really the best house rule would be get rid of WI its just not needed

When it was only a 1/6 I thought it was an interesting change for risk management.

Now it is 50% on a long bomb (or even 33% with Cannoneer) there is no reason to try except on the last turn of the drive; and it has to be the last turn not just your last turn to ensure the opponent does not have the option to capitalist on any mistakes.

The fact the new Safe Throw/Pass skill does not cancel WIP makes it even worse. That would have been a better change that it now only working on a natural one.


Yes... as we discussed above... a dedicated thrower would have needed a skill to mitigate the WIP result or at least make it much less likely so they have to be marked or under influence of other modifier to throw a WIP.

There are no way to protect against a WIP throw where you usually can mitigate both Inaccurate and Fumble to a much higher degree.
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