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Poll
Will bb2020 changes make you retire from fumbbl?
Never, fumbbl 4eva!
75%
 75%  [ 274 ]
Completely retire
1%
 1%  [ 6 ]
Retire except still do league
8%
 8%  [ 30 ]
Retire except still do some tournaments
0%
 0%  [ 2 ]
Undecided
14%
 14%  [ 52 ]
Total Votes : 364


MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks King_Ghidra.
Well, if sacking is not possible, then developing a one turner ball carrier is the only alternative.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for checking guys - so yes it still looks awful to me. If I run any team with a Sure Hands thrower or runner, the first skill I would take now is Safe Pair of Hands. Because basically it means it's almost impossible for the opponent to turn you over (barring a wizard, or most of your team getting slaughtered). Even if you get sacked you stick the ball in 2, 3 or more Tackle Zones of the cage, they can't recover and then you just pick it up again next turn. Incredibly bad game design.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 17:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, on say, a Dwarf Runner, I'd take Block and either On the Ball or Leader, honestly.
On a Human Thrower Block, Leader or Cannoneer.
On a Khemri Thrower Block, Leader, On the Ball.
You should specify the ball carrier, otherwise it's too much generic.
Consider that ball carriers will have 2-3 skills with BB2020.
Also, if the game, as you say, will be grind-oriented, then there will not be many leaping sackers, therefore making Safe Pair of Hands less useful.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

On a dwarf runner I would definitely take Safe Pair of Hands first, because it's almost a cast iron guarantee that you can't be turned over. Not just against leapers but any kind of sack - even if you go down, you just stick the ball in lots of tackle zones. Opponent can't get it, then you just stand up and pick it up again. Much better than anything else. Broken in fact, on any ball carrier.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 19:29 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:

at a -2d block - it will usually be -2 dice because there will be Guard to contend with. And teams will have to pay an

BUT SECONDLY, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY YOU HAVE MISSED OVER HALF THE PROBLEM. It is not enough to just get the ball loose in

Why should we assume they have Guard? Getting skills is going to be harder with random MVP and if they have Guard the Wardancer is likely to have Strip or other skills. Sure if you are always going to stack the deck against Leap it will look worse.

Retrieval is still going to be the same. You hope the ball scatters out the cage and pick up with the closest lineman. The part that is harder is you cannot punt it down the field or quick pass to the other Elf to peg it. You can still get the ball but might not get quite as far away with it.

Sure all these changes together make sacking harder. You need to use tactics rather than point and click leap-punch run with ball.

All teams are going to be light on skills. Keeping two players with Guard next to the ball at all times to stop a 1 dice leap means they do not have them to try and advance. You do not always have to steal the ball. Sometimes stopping the score is enough.

DrDeath wrote:
On a dwarf runner I would definitely take Safe Pair of Hands first, because it's almost a cast iron guarantee that you can't be turned over. Not just against

Safe pair of hands is a double for Dwarf. No way I would get that before Block and Dodge. In fact not sure I would bother with it at all when I could be trying to get +MV or +AG.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 19:42 Reply with quote Back to top

My only real bugbear is with the redraft cap. I don't overly enjoy playing sub 1600TV so I'll probably shelve my team and hope the cap changes so I can redraft then instead
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 20:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian I would really love to be wrong on this, but I think you're being disingenuous there. We may have smaller teams but Guard will still be one of the best skills in the game - bash sides will get at least two in addition to their killer and ball carrier. Retrieving a dropped ball to safety will certainly be harder in many circumstances due to harder leaping to get there, harder passing to get it away, and the stupidly powerful Safe Pair of Hands. In the case of dwarf runners they may need a double to get it, but they will sooner or later and then it's goodbye to any prospect of interesting play with turnovers.

The overarching problem is cumulative impacts. If it is a bit harder to get a sack, a bit harder to get a good ball scatter (although much harder there now), a bit harder to retrieve, a bit harder to pass to safety... well cumulatively it becomes extremely difficult to secure a turnover in many situations. So then we are left with passive defence as you admit. There should of course be a place for that, but I don't want that to be my only defensive option game after game. It would become boring to me.

I totally agree with Neubau and Verminardo, and I think Verminardo perfectly summed it up from another perspective. The game had evolved to a really good place over 30+ years and became pretty well balanced and diverse. Why change it so radically, and cause all these major problems? If it ain't broke don't fix it, or at least just tweak it a bit!
medaloffairness



Joined: Nov 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 22:37 Reply with quote Back to top

why you think passing has been nerfed?
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 22:49 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
Lyracian I would really love to be wrong on this, but I think you're being disingenuous there.

Saying I am being disingenuous seems harsh. I do not think either of us have actually played with the new rules? We have a difference of opinion about how much the cumulative effect will have.

I think you are being overly negative on assuming the opponent will always have Guard and you will have no skills other than Leap or in fact that you must use Leap to break cages. How do Skaven and Dark elves win games if you need Leap to break a cage?

My view is we will not see Safe pair of hands in 9 out of 10 games we will not see "Safe Pair of Hands". You have to already be losing for it to have any impact. Yes Guard, Block, Tackle and a few others are still going to be the skills everyone takes.

I just do not see teams like Dwarfs or Chaos have 5+ Guard and the ability to move it every turn so that they always have two Guard covering the ball.

My expectation for the meta is lots of low values teams with few skilled players. A quick calculation 12 Players, 3-4 TRR, Apo is going to be 1100-1200 TV for most teams. That does not leave a lot for rehiring players. 60k for a Blodge Quarterback; 40k for one bloke with Guard, maybe 30k if you got lucky with a Random skill.

1105 Skaven: Blitzer x2; Thrower; Runner x4; Linerat *5; 4 TRR; Apo
1240 Delf: Blitzer x4; Witch x2; Line x6; 3TRR; Apo
1090 Human: Blitzer x4; Thrower; Catcher x2;Linex4; Ogre; 3 TRR; Apo


Maybe in the finals of a season there will be lots of Guard but not early on.
medaloffairness



Joined: Nov 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 22:52 Reply with quote Back to top

ah, I see
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 23:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:

I just do not see teams like Dwarfs or Chaos have 5+ Guard and the ability to move it every turn so that they always have two Guard covering the ball.


Chaos no, but what else would Dorfs pick as their normal skills besides the odd MB?

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 00:27 Reply with quote Back to top

My personal take on the aspects of the new rules being complained about:

Leaping was never plan A. Or it never should have been. To quote Endzone, "3+ is a privilege you must earn the right to make me roll".

Once you start from that basic premise the %loss on the change from 3+ to 4+ is really not a big deal (especially considering the fact multiple rerolls can be used in a turn). The actual block part of the leap being -2d is absolutely no different to many, many games now, in fact, the vast majority (which is why it's never plan A).

I personally think safe pair of hands is almost an irrelevance - it comes as standard on a whopping one player, who not only costs 75k on a team which struggles with pricing, but has animosity towards every team-mate. Beyond that it is a secondary for any non-A access player and is an entirely negative skill, which does not confer any of the benefits of sure hands, and offers no protection from a knockdown, unlike block or dodge. You're more likely to see it on a stunty carrier than anywhere else while people wait for sure hands or stats on another.

I'm also somewhat dismayed to see "dynamic" defence pigeonholed in such a manner - leaping in, sacking, retrieving and passing/handing over is something that is a normally a considered swing turn, usually after several turns of disrupting/harrying the offence into a position where it is either drive defining, or simply too good to pass up. Having to simply engineer this turn so you have a thrower or high movement player in position to handover merely changes this from something that can be achieved by throwing dice at the board every turn into something that requires planning and skill to pull off regularly. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I'm also rather disappointed it seems to be the opinion of others that it's either this approach or "passive" defence only - DE has been alluded to in contrast to this, but a dynamic defence can also simply being using phase change and contact/pressure to disrupt the offence into having to leave a ball shot or simply have no score. That isn't passive, and considering you can simply purchase guard yourself, not even unreasonable to consider.

Break tackle has been nerfed? Yes, it has. Cage diving with a break tackle high ST player was honestly quite the rarity anyway, I'm not sure it's entirely relevant at all to complain about this in that situation.

Fouling changes are a preference thing, but come on, moving after a foul relies on sneaky git, again A-access. The majority of players who will/can take this skill have either pointy ears, are a stunty or are a positional on a team who could end up being required to carry.

Both sneaky git and Safe pair of hands strike me as quite ludicrous things to focus on when one is also talking about minmax and tight/lean rosters, as both require either risking a random secondary, or actively choosing a secondary on many teams who either won't want to do so or will find it potentially TV-punitive to do so. There are some outliers who will take them happily, but most of those are stunty players.

The TV cut/cap is again a preference thing, and a source of chagrin to many. I won't really dispute that because it's an entirely personal call, and I respect anyone's opinion on what TV range they prefer to play BB at.

Star players will be back, and the claw nerf comes within a meta where mng+ will be a much more common injury roll. ST being 80tv looks insane in a vacuum but considering the effect natural ST has in games where multiple stacks skills of won't be too common, and a chosen secondary is 40k TV, 50 TV was too low.

And now to dwarves...

Dwarves are still slow. Dwarves are still mass st3 in a game where lots of other teams got more big guy options, and Khemri, Liz, Undead, Orcs (now with ma5 st4!) exist. We now also have the addition of teams like Black Orcs, who come equipped with Grab and Brawler to pull dwarf lines apart, and thick skull stunties to foul or push through gaps. Jump which you malign, also causes problems to a team who have low movement and may not be able to double screen. Underworld now have a gutter runner to run miles around them, etc etc.

Will there be an uptick in the use of dwarfs? At least initially, I expect so, but purely because so many have proclaimed them to be easy mode that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Please, none of us actually know how any of this will play out. Mass hysteria does nobody any favours. My own personal gripe is I will miss the individuality dice-rolled skills, normals/doubles/stats brought to the game, but I can even see the downsides of that old approach too.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 05:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Adding a bunch of skills and then making it so that you can't really afford to ever pick them...seems like poor design.

And I still don't understand how Elves are supposed to play defense...other than mass dodge back 1 square and pray your armor holds up?
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 05:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
Adding a bunch of skills and then making it so that you can't really afford to ever pick them...seems like poor design.

And I still don't understand how Elves are supposed to play defense...other than mass dodge back 1 square and pray your armor holds up?


That's pretty much it yeah. Then if you see an opening, dive bomb the opponent to try to either sack it or bury their advance in bodies so they can't reach the end zone.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 06:37 Reply with quote Back to top

You don't need to employ a column defence to stop a drive at all, in fact, many more positions are far more effective for controlling the pitch. You can also use blodgestep in a similar manner to SF to deny space, pin/kidnap pieces, split the team, surf and even simply just trade linos onto key opponent pieces to disrupt a drive.

I'm fairly sure there's been literally thousands of elf teams over the years who had winning records without ever having a single leap player on the team. Which is not to say leaping in is completely dead, it isn't, it's only even around 10% worse depending on how willing you are to commit rerolls to it.

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