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Poll
Would you like to split the Box division in two group (SuperStar and Legend) and others?
Yes would be great!
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
I do not have any opinion
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
No! I Like the Box as it is.
85%
 85%  [ 60 ]
Total Votes : 70


argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post 22 Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 23:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Would you like the Box division better if it were split into two groups: A and B?

    Group A: Only players with CR of "Star", "Superstar" and "Legend" can play in this group


    Group B: all other players (Emerging Star, Veteran, Rookies...



Moving from one Group to the other will depend by the current player's CR
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

It would be great but it's not going to happen due to lack of enough users, I guess.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

What would you see as the benefits?

I can see a couple of disadvantages:

Splitting the coaches in this way could reduce the number of matchups (particularly North America, where it's a struggle to even get four coaches activate at once)

In general I've learned more from games with coaches that are better than me. If CR correlates with skill, splitting like that denies me a lot of opportunities

Conversely, what about where CR doesn't match with skill - say you decide to play a series of stunty games and your CR drops, so you leave group A - if people didn't want that to happen, it would probably reduce the diversity of teams played in the A division

Or are any of the things I think are negatives actually positive features?

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

The idea is to encourage more people to play the Box (newcomers are scared to play in such division and playing only Ranked games is not the best way to learn)
On the other side skilled people can play more funny games with players at their levels which make the game more funny for all

If you are a Star and you lose your points and you go to Group B, you will for sure win a lot of match if your level is greater and you will return quick to Group A.

Therw will be always the Black Box Trophy which will be open to all players in general....
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

BTW the poll question is to be corrected Star, Superstar and Legend in Group A naturally
not only Superstar and Legend...
lemf



Joined: Jul 17, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Unfortunately, in my opinion only, the more diversification of the divisions the greater the dilution of players in a particular area increasingly creating an environment which makes finding games take longer.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post 1 Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 00:58 Reply with quote Back to top

lemf wrote:
Unfortunately, in my opinion only, the more diversification of the divisions the greater the dilution of players in a particular area increasingly creating an environment which makes finding games take longer.


Yes in fact this split would work well only if minimum threshold number of people playing box will be reached. You are right if not many people play the Box the matchmaking algorithm can fail
But looking the Box Games I realize every quareter there are a lot of Superstar, Star and Legend player who play
Only minority of Veteran, Emergin (and natually no any Rooki player!)
So I think this will be not a difference for "top"players but more for medium player to have the possibility to play in a competitive division with fun (if someone want to learn the game do not play BlackBox but sooner or later you must play Blackbox if you want to improve your level)

This is the idea also behind group A and group B to create an incentive to players who usually do not dare to play the Box because too less skilled to come and play also here.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I would love to see MMR used in box. I think if we did make it obvious that we prioritize a type of MMR (when the volume is high enough for that to matter), that might help keep other players, as they would know that playing against legends is not designed to be a normal occurence.

However, due to the size of our population of actual users, we would have to leave it purely as one aspect of matchmaking, and if the only way to get games is to pit a 150 vs a 165, then that would happen.

I would NOT split it by a specific group such as you have proposed. It would just be 'try to match up to someone near your scale.'

I WOULD also include racial biases (not what we have right now, where you get CR based on race, but instead you'd need to have some kind of comparative value to say 'they are playing an offrace, their CR will be lower'). However, the way other games do that is to give a completely unique ranking per rank, which wouldn't work here because being the best halfling coach ever, doesn't make you equivalent of the best dark elf coach ever - the races are NOT designed to be equal. And designing such a comparitive ranking of the races would be.. controversial. And probably not worth it. So then you'd need to make a single CR scale, but give each coach a ranking for each race, so even if you were the best halfling coach, but you only won 50% of your matches, you'd have an CR somewhere around .. wherever it is that you get 50% wins. presumably like 150? I have no idea actually what the CR scale is.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 01:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:


However, due to the size of our population of actual users, we would have to leave it purely as one aspect of matchmaking, and if the only way to get games is to pit a 150 vs a 165, then that would happen.


Concerning the risk that population is not enough:
Let's take the last 16 matches playes in Box today; January 20th from 22.15 Server time till 00:45 Server time
We have 16 matches between 32 players
15 players: Emergin stars or Veteran ( so Group B)
17 players Super Star, Legend or Stars ( so Group A)
is quite close to 50%!
(which is reassuring means than Box include a large variety of people btw)

To evaluate the risk to have a lot of Box time scheduling empties, it would be necessary a statistic analysis with all the Box played during a period of time to chck if this would make sense or not

In alternative, I agree with you some changes in the Box Matchmaking algorithm would be appreciated to reach a similar target.
But this is another poll and another thread
Cool
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2021 - 01:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I never play as early as 00:45 in box. Definitely skews a lot of how I see box.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 26, 2021 - 08:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I disagree. I learned to play in Ranked before Black Box existed. It is a wonderful place to learn if you use it right.
If you start a team and stick with it for 20 games or so and try to match yourself in ways that will challenge you to get better you will learn.

I always used a general scheduling method that mirrored what a certain coach of my favorite local (American) football team used when I was a kid.
Our team was an Independent so all 11 games were OPEN to whoever we could get each season. And his philosophy was to play 3 teams you SHOULD beat, 3 teams that SHOULD beat you and 5 Toss Ups based on what you imagine your Level was.
Sometimes I was ducking the Legends to find a Rookie and others I was turning down Rookies because I needed a Challenge.
Then others I was busy trying to figure out how to beat Team X with Team Y... like when my Humans played Lizardmen as often as possible after trying to figure out how to beat Elves and before I was trying to figure out beating Necromantic teams.

Ranked let's you LEARN what you are not grasping about the game IF you use it to LEARN.

Box... if you don't already KNOW how to play the game is a TERRIBLE environment for LEARNING anything other than how to get BEATDOWN by people that already KNOW how to play.
That is not to say it isn't a place to CONTINUE LEARNING once you already know how. A place to go from Not Bad or Pretty Good to GREAT. But if you never make it to Not Bad or Pretty Good 1st... it is just a place to get slaughtered.

As for the OP... I'm AGAINST 2 Box Divisions.
It MIGHT work during peak time Europe. It would be IMPOSSIBLE most days in America/Canada, Australia/New Zealand, anywhere else.
Plus, Ranked is a needed environment for LEARNING the game.

argos_72 wrote:
The idea is to encourage more people to play the Box (newcomers are scared to play in such division and playing only Ranked games is not the best way to learn)
On the other side skilled people can play more funny games with players at their levels which make the game more funny for all

If you are a Star and you lose your points and you go to Group B, you will for sure win a lot of match if your level is greater and you will return quick to Group A.

Therw will be always the Black Box Trophy which will be open to all players in general....
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 26, 2021 - 08:54 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Would you like the Box division better if it were split into two groups: A and B?


Any split of the player base is bad for the site/community as a whole. It seems like Christer is finally able to get rid of the detrimental split between [R]anked and [B]ox and implementing a new split in it's place is a terrible idea.

4 Coaches activated, split 2 vs 2 over these new groups: no game. How is that ever a good thing?

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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 26, 2021 - 09:10 Reply with quote Back to top

out and out no... people should not fear being against a better coach. Use it as a learning experience
spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 26, 2021 - 09:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Bad idea, the high ranked box would die super fast.

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BeanBelly



Joined: Nov 14, 2019

Post   Posted: Jan 26, 2021 - 10:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah jump in box with everyone; even if it is scary. learn from your losses and get better. I learnt - and learnt quickly - in box precisely because it is so challenging. Take tough races that can survive, build them lean.
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