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cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2021 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

5 vampires seem like the ideal for a league start these days.

Animal savagery replacing blood lust is a huge buff.

Hypnotic gaze being 4+ is not actually a bad thing as hitting the thrall next to you before you move to the cage you are trying to break is easy to play around.

The team seems so different from its last roster in just that one change that I think Vampire coaches need to reevaluate skills like jump up and the value of saving for +1 str.

I just want to open the discussion without the previous bias of old blood bowl vampires.
Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2021 - 23:28 Reply with quote Back to top

this a troll post?
funny not funny
cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2021 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Not a troll post, I'm just stupid.

The vampire roster seems so viable as I have played it. Tell me how I'm wrong so I can be less stupid in the future.

_________________
Always be blocking / Never ever trust your dice / Fear is the killer.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2021 - 23:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I would go 6 vamps, keeping in mind that you can position them so they just bone-head instead of hitting your other players when they fail their Savagery roll. Also, they can attack each other, so you don't have to worry about running out of Thrall. First skill - Pro on every vampire?

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
neilwat



Joined: Aug 01, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 03, 2021 - 13:23
FUMBBL Staff
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One disadvantage is that you can only target your own standing players, so you can't have that poor thrall on the floor being the blood bank for the whole team. I have been trying out vamps recently but I can't work out how the new ones will be? Pro first choice could be more important now with it being 3+ and the possible worse affects of animal savagery.

I hope they make a vampire Spike to make a really nice and balanced team out of them, maybe with a blood lust style rule coming back.
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 03, 2021 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

There's a lot of hostility towards the new vampires here and among people who didn't try them.
But the thing is, none of the coaches who actually did try them had a negative opinion so far - the team does feel very different, but not worse.

Now, I don't think it puts much more value on jump up, or +STR.
Jump up is only a primary on vamps, and while you can hit them because of AS, there are still better skills to take first. Like Grod wrote, Pro is now very valuable on vampires, especially since it's now a 3+. It's really valuable because contrarily to Blood Lust, AS can't lead directly to turnovers, so you can affort to fail the pro. Just like Ogres, you'll have to plan around failed negatrait rolls, except that you have three solutions in case you really need to move with a player: hitting one of your own players, rerolling or using pro.

+STR isn't something I would consider on any player now that it's so unlikely to get and so expansive. You only have 1/8 chance to get it after saving at least 18spp, and then it's +80k in your TV... For what? ST5 is less useful than a lot of skills like block, dodge, pro etc... even jump up in fact.
rolo



Joined: Mar 31, 2016

Post   Posted: Feb 03, 2021 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Disclaimer: Haven't played yet, just looking forward to playing once I can actually meet my leaguemates at the same table ...

(1) I think that Animal Savagery is going to be easier to plan for but will end up costing slightly more Thralls in the long run.

(2) I think the biggest buff is to Hypnotic Gaze - not only is it a 2+ roll now, but players who have lost their tackle zone cannot use skills.

(3) I can't see saving up for +ST, too expensive and takes too long. The Vampires just improve so much with skills (3+ Pro is going to be huge, Block is still the best skill in the game).
+AV, however, might be worth it on at least a few Thralls.

(3a) I expect I'll develop Vampires as: Pro, Block, Dodge (likely in that order), then random Agility or General skills as needed. Probably never take random Strength skills, because Mighty Blow is actually a serious risk for Vampires now.

(4) I have no idea how leagues are going to look and feel, long-term, with the Redrafting rules. I suspect that it's going to be difficult to keep even the most skilled players for more than a few seasons. But Vampires "seem to me" to be one of those teams where a few highly skilled Vampires and a bunch of rookie Thralls are going to be viable.
cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Feb 03, 2021 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

neilwat wrote:
One disadvantage is that you can only target your own standing players, so you can't have that poor thrall on the floor being the blood bank for the whole team. I have been trying out vamps recently but I can't work out how the new ones will be? Pro first choice could be more important now with it being 3+ and the possible worse affects of animal savagery.

I hope they make a vampire Spike to make a really nice and balanced team out of them, maybe with a blood lust style rule coming back.


"The possible worse affect of animal savagery" seems wrong as bloodlust was an injury roll against a thrall. Animal savagery is an armour roll against any friendly. Blood lust failing to end the turn next to a thrall was a loss of a vampire. Failing Animal savagery is just losing your tacklezone.

Alien_the_Alien wrote:
Now, I don't think it puts much more value on jump up, or +STR.


+Str was more of a meme but jump up on a vampire makes laying on the ground boneheading less likely but also means that if a vampire 'savagerys' another vampire(that has jump up) and doesn't break his armour you can jump up and attack also. Obviously, Blodge is the best option for your blitzing vampires. However, I feel having more of a hunter killer vampire with Mighty Blow, Jump up, and Frenzy or something I've not put to much thought into it yet.

Also Pro is definitely better than it used to be but rerolling savagery isn't as crucial as rerolling bloodlust.
rolo



Joined: Mar 31, 2016

Post   Posted: Feb 04, 2021 - 09:50 Reply with quote Back to top

cromag wrote:
Also Pro is definitely better than it used to be but rerolling savagery isn't as crucial as rerolling bloodlust.


It's not just for Savagery. Great for gaze too, and any non-critical roll (Ball's safe but you fail the pickup at the end of your turn ... probably not worth a Reroll but Pro is free.

Plus I think a hidden upgrade to Pro is that it rerolls one die, not one roll. So you block and roll push/skull, pro the skull at zero risk.

The old, 4+ Pro was good enough already, although not as important as Blodge. 3+ Pro is arguably the first skill Vampires should take. I look forward to testing this (and likely finding out in painful and embarrassing ways how wrong I am).
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 04, 2021 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="rolo"]
cromag wrote:

The old, 4+ Pro was good enough already, although not as important as Blodge. 3+ Pro is arguably the first skill Vampires should take. I look forward to testing this (and likely finding out in painful and embarrassing ways how wrong I am).


My thought was half Pro half Block. You have TRR to use on the Block Vamp and he will be Blitzing for you anyway.
King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 04, 2021 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

cromag wrote:

"The possible worse affect of animal savagery" seems wrong as bloodlust was an injury roll against a thrall. Animal savagery is an armour roll against any friendly. Blood lust failing to end the turn next to a thrall was a loss of a vampire. Failing Animal savagery is just losing your tacklezone.


Bloodlust was 2+. More often than not AS will be 4+. Losing a vamp to lack of bite targets was the absolute rarest problem. Losing your TZ and doing nothing will be, I suspect, a common one.

Alien_the_Alien wrote:

There's a lot of hostility towards the new vampires here and among people who didn't try them.
But the thing is, none of the coaches who actually did try them had a negative opinion so far


I'm intrigued, who are these coaches of whom you speak? Are they good coaches? I am all ears for practical experience on this topic.
cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2021 - 21:16 Reply with quote Back to top

A lot of my opponents see that I'm on vampires and seek to isolate them from thralls. The old team had this huge weakness where you wanted to start with three vampire and work for the forth or start with four and work for more rerolls either way. So it was fairly easy for an opponent to push and grab your vampires away from thralls and then it became 1 in 6 you lose a player. So if you were against a low scoring team like chaos or dwarfs. You could end up very easily completely on your ass for the first half through no fault of the plays you took just dice rolls.
This updated roster makes it a lot harder to straight up lose to your bloodlust/animal savagery

_________________
Always be blocking / Never ever trust your dice / Fear is the killer.
popekheris



Joined: Dec 12, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2021 - 23:52 Reply with quote Back to top

If you're completely screened off from your Thralls, yes. But it's not that hard to dodge away to reconnect in the old rules, as you don't need to feed until the end of movement. In 2020, I would argue it's worse, as you bonehead if you start separated from your thralls due to the exact same tactic you just mentioned.
cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2021 - 01:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Bonehead but still on the pitch is better in my mind. Two Vampires next to each other is also an option now they can 'feed' on each other.

_________________
Always be blocking / Never ever trust your dice / Fear is the killer.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: May 10, 2021 - 07:46 Reply with quote Back to top

cromag wrote:
You could end up very easily completely on your ass for the first half through no fault of the plays you took just dice rolls.

This is Blood Bowl. I just had a match where I rolled quad-skulls as Khemri. Four times. With dice like that, there is literally nothing you can do.

cromag wrote:
This updated roster makes it a lot harder to straight up lose to your bloodlust/animal savagery

[...]

Bonehead but still on the pitch is better in my mind. Two Vampires next to each other is also an option now they can 'feed' on each other.

I agree the change is better in the sense that if you have to, you can sacrifice your teammate to ensure the action proceeds as planned.

Another upside is that Animal Savagery is not going straight into an injury roll. That said, your Thralls are still AV7 (8+), so expect to lose some. And when you do, you will start having problems.

Because you need to either put your Vampires (with AV8) in harm's way to be able to get 2+ block - and you can still fail that, meaning going boneheaded - or get someone in contact for the action to be carried out.

With KOs/injuries/downs and opponents merely marking your Thralls (AG3) this means your team has to either stay together or risk getting divided and conquered, thereby forcing you to keep it together. Which will be harder with each passing turn.


Last edited by Bellenrode on May 14, 2021 - 11:32; edited 1 time in total
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