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Poll
Do you agree with most of the points indicated in this thread?
yes
5%
 5%  [ 9 ]
No
65%
 65%  [ 101 ]
I don't care: i will play BB whatever be the rules
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
I will abandon BB2020 in any case
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 154


argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

XpherAndTheAxes wrote:


i mean i dont know how many people i speak for, but if the game was less random and less "anything could happen" and less of the "fantasy, over the top craziness" that all GW games tend to be, then i would gladly move on to another game. i think that a degree of randomness and risk can make a game a lot more fun, and challenging to acknowledge the risks are there and try to plan ahead to work around them if they happen


yes " a degree". But with the current level of randomicity several match ended in very chaotic way.
I did not propose to abolish the dice, just to ban stupid events like pitch invasion or widely inaccurate pass. Also I proposed to adapt the dice's size to the set of the events (a Mummy that should pick up scattering ball inside 4 tackle zone should roll 8+ ... if it roll 6 the Mummy pik up the ball ... why AG5 players can dodge with 2+ into a tackle zone or into a empty square? This is the results of bad designed dice size. I am not saying that for ALL the events in the game the 6 face dices need to be replaced, but just for a subset of this

Thinks also to the new rule of the Pass. Passing the ball with the widely inaccurate pass and the 6 face dices will make the match for players using agility team a nightmare. Some people in this site are americans, they call this Fantasy Football. I told in another post that with this crazy rule of the widely inaccurate pass the game will become Fantasy Rugby

Ball trow in by the crwod scattering in the field in whatever direction for 2D6 (or even 1D6 now i do not remember) is a non sense: I mean, is it fun? for me is not fun is just throwing a coin)

Last but not least: the time duration: we speak of a game where a match can have a duration of more than 1 hour. When you hve to play still half a game with half of your team out it is not funny at all. And you cannot concede so easily ...

so why do nto reduce little bit the time of the turns?

All these type of things I am proposing. BB2020 is released i think there will be in future some "errata" i m prettu syre G&W will review some mechanism like widely inaccurate pass. It is the right time to discuss if we think would be nice to have something more.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 06:38 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72, I don't agree with your posts proposals but you're not the first person to hypothesis and re-design BB either in full or in part. We're all gamer nerds here and many of us have our own theories on game design at a mathematical level and all the way through to what is "fun" (and one persons fun is not another)

And forums are where we have these debates so you're well within your right to throw up these questions.

However, and I have been here a long time with changes to LRB4 through to CRP through to BB2016 and now BB2020. At each time, there is a gnashing of teeth and great angst because the sky is falling and the game is "broken"

In each case, its not. Its just different and it evolves and play style and the meta changes as a result. And yes, you're probably right, Blood Bowl has changed alot but so do other games. D&D is on its 5th edition. Warhammer has changed many many times (and is now AoS?)

I guess I am just tired of the Chicken Little posts on how the sky is falling.... to me Blood Bowl is fun because a Mummy in 3 tackle zones can take an intercept on a 1 in 6 chance. A snotling can kill a death roller with a 3d uphill block. To quote a great Australian movie "The Castle", its "the vibe" of the game which I think what Catalyst is trying to articulate.

https://youtu.be/nMuh33BMZYY
XpherAndTheAxes



Joined: Jun 20, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 10:56 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
XpherAndTheAxes wrote:


i mean i dont know how many people i speak for, but if the game was less random and less "anything could happen" and less of the "fantasy, over the top craziness" that all GW games tend to be, then i would gladly move on to another game. i think that a degree of randomness and risk can make a game a lot more fun, and challenging to acknowledge the risks are there and try to plan ahead to work around them if they happen


yes " a degree". But with the current level of randomicity several match ended in very chaotic way.
I did not propose to abolish the dice, just to ban stupid events like pitch invasion or widely inaccurate pass. Also I proposed to adapt the dice's size to the set of the events (a Mummy that should pick up scattering ball inside 4 tackle zone should roll 8+ ... if it roll 6 the Mummy pik up the ball ... why AG5 players can dodge with 2+ into a tackle zone or into a empty square? This is the results of bad designed dice size. I am not saying that for ALL the events in the game the 6 face dices need to be replaced, but just for a subset of this

Thinks also to the new rule of the Pass. Passing the ball with the widely inaccurate pass and the 6 face dices will make the match for players using agility team a nightmare. Some people in this site are americans, they call this Fantasy Football. I told in another post that with this crazy rule of the widely inaccurate pass the game will become Fantasy Rugby

Ball trow in by the crwod scattering in the field in whatever direction for 2D6 (or even 1D6 now i do not remember) is a non sense: I mean, is it fun? for me is not fun is just throwing a coin)

Last but not least: the time duration: we speak of a game where a match can have a duration of more than 1 hour. When you hve to play still half a game with half of your team out it is not funny at all. And you cannot concede so easily ...

so why do nto reduce little bit the time of the turns?

All these type of things I am proposing. BB2020 is released i think there will be in future some "errata" i m prettu syre G&W will review some mechanism like widely inaccurate pass. It is the right time to discuss if we think would be nice to have something more.


Play rugby or football if you want to understand the badness of the wildly innacurate throws, sometimes throwing doesnt feel like an option and you have to try to punt the ball with your foot, and trying to do a good kick is pretty hard, if you hit the ball wrong it could go backwards or sideways easily, and if unlucky enough it could smack you in the face.

As for pitch invasion, imagine you are a big ogre (shouldnt be too bad, just try to imagine a time you are angry and blinded by it, or drunk and annoyed), your team is losing or the game is boring and you decide to spice it up, you and a few of your big ogre mates trample on to the pitch and start beating people up, leaving them stunned on the floor, you then trod back to your seats and watch the game with a bit of extra blood involved.

Its a game about imagination and roleplaying more than it is about sitting on a pile of CR with a godlike winrate. Bad weather happens, angry ogre fans happens, fans with weapons happens, its a filthy game which attracts the worst people from the fantasy universe, and as it is prayers to the god of violent sport, there should be a bit of chaos, and random brutal.luck
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 11:06 Reply with quote Back to top

If only the client were coded in such a way that one could adjust all the probabilities and modifiers when setting up ones own league hey
XpherAndTheAxes



Joined: Jun 20, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 11:07 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
If only the client were coded in such a way that one could adjust all the probabilities and modifiers when setting up ones own league hey

Would be a dream but would kill a man trying to code it probably
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 11:20 Reply with quote Back to top

You probably would have to have all the probabilities / modifiers stored as reference tables or simething, so they could easily be adjusted.
Not ever expecting this to happen btw
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 11:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Just a correction: the crowd send the ball who go out with a 2D6 roll. So in principle from 2 to 12 squares. I told in one of my previous post 1D6 which is not correct.
This is even worst by the way, and a very simply modification will be that the ball will be throw in by 1D6 only and in the same part of the pitch (which I think was already the case in the past...)
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 11:54 Reply with quote Back to top

XpherAndTheAxes wrote:


As for pitch invasion, imagine you are a big ogre (shouldnt be too bad, just try to imagine a time you are angry and blinded by it, or drunk and annoyed), your team is losing or the game is boring and you decide to spice it up, you and a few of your big ogre mates trample on to the pitch and start beating people up, leaving them stunned on the floor, you then trod back to your seats and watch the game with a bit of extra blood involved.

Its a game about imagination and roleplaying more than it is about sitting on a pile of CR with a godlike winrate. Bad weather happens, angry ogre fans happens, fans with weapons happens, its a filthy game which attracts the worst people from the fantasy universe, and as it is prayers to the god of violent sport, there should be a bit of chaos, and random brutal.luck


would be fun if you have not then to sit and wait 30 minutes because the agony will end. Winning a game because pitch invasion in my favour make not me happy Anyway G&W has hopefully reviewed this rule. Let's see if the mitigation of the number of players mzx 3 to be stunned. Still roll a D6 to decide who suffer most the pitch invasion is an introduction of unnecessary chaos. If we want to mantian the pitch invasion let's say simplY: both team roll 1D6 and random 1D3 players are stunned if results is greater than 5. I still do not understand why this is fun but anyway.... better then in the past
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 11:58 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
If only the client were coded in such a way that one could adjust all the probabilities and modifiers when setting up ones own league hey


yes would be in fact interesting to have possibility to run a league where you can customize the dice roll and/or asjust some other rules to make some test. Also because I do not have the presumption that my points are correct because i never tested ( i can test on tabletop game but in this period of lockdown i do not have chance to play BB real tabletop game often Crying or Very sad ).

But the league does not give possibility to change the dice roll, this is too deep inside the working of the client. But I would be happy to have this option if possible.
XpherAndTheAxes



Joined: Jun 20, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 13:30 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
XpherAndTheAxes wrote:


As for pitch invasion, imagine you are a big ogre (shouldnt be too bad, just try to imagine a time you are angry and blinded by it, or drunk and annoyed), your team is losing or the game is boring and you decide to spice it up, you and a few of your big ogre mates trample on to the pitch and start beating people up, leaving them stunned on the floor, you then trod back to your seats and watch the game with a bit of extra blood involved.

Its a game about imagination and roleplaying more than it is about sitting on a pile of CR with a godlike winrate. Bad weather happens, angry ogre fans happens, fans with weapons happens, its a filthy game which attracts the worst people from the fantasy universe, and as it is prayers to the god of violent sport, there should be a bit of chaos, and random brutal.luck


would be fun if you have not then to sit and wait 30 minutes because the agony will end. Winning a game because pitch invasion in my favour make not me happy Anyway G&W has hopefully reviewed this rule. Let's see if the mitigation of the number of players mzx 3 to be stunned. Still roll a D6 to decide who suffer most the pitch invasion is an introduction of unnecessary chaos. If we want to mantian the pitch invasion let's say simplY: both team roll 1D6 and random 1D3 players are stunned if results is greater than 5. I still do not understand why this is fun but anyway.... better then in the past


"would be fun if you have not then to sit and wait 30 minutes because the agony will end." it is a game, and sometimes bad things happen in games, they arent always unrecoverable, and you can still have fun roleplaying or trying to talk, i wouldnt refer to it as agony but rather looking at the game in the same 2d way you look at competitive computer games. this is a rather social game and intended for tabletop initially, where you talk to your opponent, but perhaps you miss out on that part because you scream about the pain of a bad dice roll and nobody enjoys hearing it.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
So, when a player is KO place him face down in the KO box, then, if he doesn't recover at end of drive, turn the miniature face up. Try again at end of next drive and, if the roll is failed again, stand the miniature up.

I read that on your profile but seeing how people actually play table top at our league and how bad many of them are with the basic rules even as far as "have I activated X this turn" I am not convinced that would actually work well in tabletop.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 14:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, if they can't keep track of such a simple information maybe they should not play BB at all Razz.
Also, KO players are not many so it's quite easy to remember which ones are 4+, 3+ or 2+ with the miniatures, while remembering who activated on 11 players is harder.

If it still is so hard, just use a paper sheet with 3 different KO sectors, 1 for 4+ players, 1 for 3+ players, 1 for 2+ players.
Easy.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 16:08 Reply with quote Back to top

XpherAndTheAxes wrote:



"would be fun if you have not then to sit and wait 30 minutes because the agony will end." it is a game, and sometimes bad things happen in games,


when in the kick off table 3 event on 12 are completely stupid (pitch invasion, throw a rock, perfect defence) 25% is not "sometime" mens that "in average" every 4 kick off you suffer such stupid event. G&W removed the "throw a rock" in the kick off table probably they too understand how much is stupid such thingh. Still I think pitch invasion and perfect defence is not usefull in this game. It will simply make the game more boring for the player who suffer this "further casualty".
I do not understand why people like so much pitch invasion or perfect defence or throw a rock.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 16:22 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72, if blood bowl was an olympic sport and was hence deemed a "sport" that had to be decided on skill alone coupled with block, dodge and ball handling dice rolls alone, then you would have a point.

Blood Bowl is a crazy game with cartoony hijinks set in a fantasy world that enables every underdog to sometimes have his day.

To answer your question, I like the Pitch Invasion because its comical, I like the Perfect Defence and Blitz because they're game changing (hence leading to occaisional upsets) and Throw a Rock equally so.

I am in favour of the tone down of PD, Blitz and Thrown Rock in 2020, but I am against its elimination.

It may be time to stop beating the dead horse.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Well, if they can't keep track of such a simple information maybe they should not play BB at all Razz.

Maybe they should not be but game designers need to make something with broad appeal to get the players. Personally I love the suggestion I just do not see it as viable.

I have seen players having lots of fun with the game where they have a Troll and Ogre standing in the middle of the pitch throwing 1 dice blocks at each other. Not everyone is into keen strategy and careful calculations.
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