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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 16:43 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
With BB2020 you can build a better Legend player by picking the skills, but the questions are:
- how many games will it take, considering the MVP is random again and worth only 4 SPPs?
- how long can you keep this Legend player, considering Season Redraft? I guess 2 Seasons or 3 maximum, that means, on FUMBBL, 30-45 games.

So, is it really worth the effort to build a Legend player or is it better to just get a single essential stat boost (for example: +AG for a WD, +MA/AG for a ball carrier or +PA for a Thrower)?
Maybe it's better not bothering building Legends anymore because they will not last long anyway. Maybe it's better to spread the skills across the players and build a team and not a single Legend freak.


True. But due to the number of games played on this site and the thousands (??) of teams, you can bet there will be a player who gets a multiple load of random MVPs and will become a Legend very quickly against the grain.

Its not unlikely, its almost certain!

This means that Legends will truly be Legendary... as they should be and I don't think this is a bad thing.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 18:51 Reply with quote Back to top

pielover101 wrote:

Wardancer's can happily go for stats for Ag from the start and settle for Ma/MB/Juggernaut if they miss.

Remember though that then you are waiting longer to get your first skill choice. And player careers will generally be shorter to the seasons and rebuys. I think the majority of people will use seasons (other than for tournaments that are even shorter such as resurrection).
No doubt that the skill level complication isn't going to help bring in new people.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 06:34 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
...
And, yes of course, I could complain about other aspects that are even more complex. But that does not negate that THIS ASPECT of the game is part of what is more complex about the game AND thereby a BARRIER for entry of NEW PLAYERS and something some experienced players will choose not to learn.
...


It is more complex than before, but it is still not really complex.

New coaches at least have the advantage that they do not have to unlearn the old way, which they may have preferred. Wink

It is also listed on page 71 of the rule book. The weak-hearted and/or feeble-minded will have given up long before then. Twisted Evil

Edit: Being able to plot a path rather than having to hope for doubles or stat-ups is probably easier for many new coaches to handle.


TRUE and I don't disagree with you. I just wish some of the guys that played this game weren't so SMART. It makes it harder on me to WIN.
I AM an actual Genius... but if I were to join a MENSA organization it is highly likely I would have the lowest IQ in the group.


As I also mentioned above I work as a Sports Official.
And as you point out this Blood Bowl Rule is covered on page 71 of the Rules Book.
So... just as a for instance I decided to check out how many pages are in my Volleyball Rules Book for this year. (I have to pass a Test on Rules every year to continue to work as Sports Official and I have to take the test this week.)

Guess how many pages?
No, I'll just tell you. 45.
This is an entire REAL WORLD SPORT and the book is only 4"X 6".
Those are some small pages.

So... think about that. A REAL WORLD RULES BOOK is less complex than Blood Bowl's Rules. And that includes a Glossary. Rules on Conduct. Rules on Uniforms like how big the LOGO of the company that made the Uniform can be. How High to hang the Net. Rules about Knee Braces. Rules about how much to inflate the Ball.

EVERY SINGLE TINY DETAIL of the rules of the Sport is contained in 45 pages sized 4"X 6".
That is an INDEX CARD sized sheet of paper. Something you might put the notes to a Speech on.

That info led me to check my (American) Football Rules Book.
You know that super complicated game of (American) Football with all of it's intricate and overlapping rules and rules that cancel each other out.
That Rules Book ALSO has all of the small details you can imagine and tons of small details many of you could not even imagine are written in this Rules Book to govern all aspects of the game.

That (American) Football Rules Book is only 81 pages. Also 4"X 6" sized pages.

YEAH.
THAT is how COMPLEX Blood Bowl is.
Think about that.

Basketball... 61 pages (6"X 4").
Fastpitch Softball... 75 pages (6"X 4")
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 09:39 Reply with quote Back to top

What I meant was that this aspect of the game is not really complex.

It is not part of the actual game, so you don't need to know it in real-time to win.

There is a small chart. With what we have heard here and a quick glance at the chart, it is obvious. It is not complex.

It is now 2021. I've barely read the 2016 rules. Seriously, you can watch a video on the differences in 30mins and you can pick up the rest over the next five years.

If you are starting from scratch, you will have to do some reading. But you don't have to memorise everything. Unless you play a lot of games you won't encounter a lot of this stuff. When it bites you in that arse, you may remember it after that. Or it may be so long before you see it again that you'll have forgotten it again. The more you stick to low TV, the less of the rules you'll need.

They are trying to make the game more accessible, but it was never meant to be a game for everyone.

How big would the rule book be if they put all the Secret League teams in it? Twisted Evil

Yes, I did buy that second book. No, I have not done more than look at the pictures.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 11:01 Reply with quote Back to top

@Catalyst, pretty sure Soccer doesn't need rules for how fast people can run, or how much stronger than other players they are, or the exact chances of each position correctly passing the ball, or a detailed system of generating a defined range injury types on players, ... and yet it's still a game needs multiple referees just to function.

Blood Bowl's very tidy in how it provides variety, it's simple enough you can teach pretty young kids in a couple hours, yet you can play thousands of games and still have new experiences all the time. And they fit all that in like 50 pages plus fluff, teams, and including lots of art in that count. Plus it's a team manager game too! And a league manager game. And a player agent game.

And yeah there's an extra book with a lot of optional stuff to provide even more variety if you want it.at all

--

Like, yeah, the game's got endless emergent complexity, understanding the best play among the insane number of options is not easy even with the good heuristics of long experience, but it's built off a pretty simple set of base rules, and you can play it with two people and an hour or two to roll dice.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Warhammer Quest or Necromunda, other GW games, were more complex than BB2020.
WHFB and WH40k had lot of FAQs to clarify weird interactions of rules and special rules overlapping with the release of new army books/codexes.

BB2020 is not really complex, it's just unnecessarily clunky in the progression aspect.
Blood Bowl has been a quite simple game since 3rd edition, in terms of ruleset.
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Warhammer Quest or Necromunda, other GW games, were more complex than BB2020.
WHFB and WH40k had lot of FAQs to clarify weird interactions of rules and special rules overlapping with the release of new army books/codexes.

BB2020 is not really complex, it's just unnecessarily clunky in the progression aspect.
Blood Bowl has been a quite simple game since 3rd edition, in terms of ruleset.


Agree with Mat here. Fantasy battle/40k are more immersive and 'strategic' rather than 'tactical' (a distinction I think of terms of overarching strategy for the former, and quick thinking and alertness to detail in terms of the later); wfrp brilliant in its sheer epic scope and sense of narrative; and the other games Mat cites good in their own ways. Indeed, Blood Bowl has never been my favorite game. But it, without doubt, the game that best continues to remain fresh no matter how often it is played. It also achieves the magic combination of simple rules giving rise to complex tactical play and an almost limitless ceiling in terms of how good you can get at it. No other GW game archives this (wfrp does to some degree - all you actually need to play is a set of stats out of 100 and you can make up the rest as probabilities out of 100 as you go, if you like. Even so, Wfrp requires several players, hours to play, and a huge commitment from the GM).

Unique among the relatively 'simple' tabletop games, such as those cited by Mat, Blood Bowl is the only one where progression does not break the game. Sure, it may be true the game becomes more unbalanced at high TV, but this is nothing compared with Necromunda or Mordheim where the game mechanics simply fail to produce a tactical game at very high levels. High TV teams routinely lose to low TV teams in Blood Bowl, and not just because of luck. Quite simply, Blood Bowl is one of the best games ever written.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 17:04 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
@Catalyst, pretty sure Soccer doesn't need rules for how fast people can run, or how much stronger than other players they are, or the exact chances of each position correctly passing the ball, or a detailed system of generating a defined range injury types on players, ... and yet it's still a game needs multiple referees just to function.

Blood Bowl's very tidy in how it provides variety, it's simple enough you can teach pretty young kids in a couple hours, yet you can play thousands of games and still have new experiences all the time. And they fit all that in like 50 pages plus fluff, teams, and including lots of art in that count. Plus it's a team manager game too! And a league manager game. And a player agent game.

And yeah there's an extra book with a lot of optional stuff to provide even more variety if you want it.at all

--

Like, yeah, the game's got endless emergent complexity, understanding the best play among the insane number of options is not easy even with the good heuristics of long experience, but it's built off a pretty simple set of base rules, and you can play it with two people and an hour or two to roll dice.



Yeah. But Soccer is a game for SIMPLETONS. (I kid. I kid.)

But Soccer and all other Rules Books have specific rules on where Numbers must be and what size they must be and tons of minor trivial details yet it is still shorter than THE BASICS of Blood Bowl.

And Field Hockey has Rules on how hard you can hit the ball and how fast you can run.

My point is (and stands) that the Blood Bowl Rules book is LONGER than most IRL Games. It has MORE RULES than the even the most SIMPLE Actual Sport in the World... Soccer.

Rules are Rules DUDE.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2021 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with Joe1982. Well, Warhammer Quest and Necromunda are not exactly the same kind of game as BB, but I used some GW games just to make examples of games from the same producer.
In terms of complexity (i.e. books to read to play) both Necromunda and Warhammer Quest require more time than BB, which is more a tactical game with a progression aspect rather than a narrative campaign RPG game.
And yes, Necromunda fights between developed gangs, with BS boosts, laser sights, bionic eyes etc. lost lot of tactical depth, because using the scenario elements to take cover was less important due to too many bonuses to hit.
BB "scales" better and it has great replayability value without a complex ruleset, so it's probably the best of the GW games I have played and it doesn't require lot of space and lots of miniatures.
DonnyRainboe



Joined: Sep 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2021 - 02:40 Reply with quote Back to top

D20 okay or just a silly idea.?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2021 - 11:50 Reply with quote Back to top

D20 can work but it requires many modifiers to work properly, and taking into account many modifiers would slow down the TT game, the same goes for D100.
Also, a game with many modifiers is generally a RPG or a long campaing game (the modifiers are earned over time as the players/fighters/gangers develop).
Using D20 or D100 would shift BB, which is first and foremost a TT game supposed to be played in 2 hours, to a RPG game, requiring more time and with more complexity.
Therefore the right compromise seems to me to use a D8, D10 or D12.
D8 could be ideal because it's already included in the box.
Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2021 - 11:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi eveybody, I have a question: in BB2020 rules, a random secondary skill adds 20 or 30 to TV?
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2021 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Joe1982 wrote:
Blood Bowl is one of the best games ever written.


Maybe the best game designed by GW ...
There are plenty of tabletop games with better designed rules tham BB (at least speaking about the current 2016BB, i cannot judge BB2020 before have played several games)

Still I think there are plenty of space of improvements in the current BB2016 rules:
-kick off events
-dice events (KO recovery event, Pick up the ball, six face dice space of event which make 7+, 8+ 9+ event at the same probability, or AG5 player neglect 1 or 2 tackle zones etc.. etc...)

Some of the rules has been changed with BB2020 (get rid of the stupid throw a rock, reducing the power of the Blitz!) other are questionable (like the widely inaccurate pass) but having read the official Book and the last FAQ/Designer Commentary I think BB2020 will be little bit more balanced than BB2016 from ruleset point of view. At least for coaches who like to play at medium/low TV.

Naturally players who like playing at very high TV with legendary players or superskilled , minmax, CLAWMB spam and so on will be disappointed. Razz

And naturally these crazy match with 1000K TV gap will be part of the History Smile
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2021 - 13:26 Reply with quote Back to top

To me, reducing the silliness reduces the fun. The kick-off table gets softened with every new ruleset. The next ruleset will probably be worse.

I'm sure that is a minority viewpoint but I'll be sticking with the old rules or at least some old rule options for as long as I can.

I don't need the game to be too "competitive". I have other games for that.

Table-top leagues have always been able to pick and choose house rules. I've always seen the rules as more like "guidelines". Wink

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2021 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
To me, reducing the silliness reduces the fun.


if the single match duration were 10 mins , I would agree with you.
but when you have to invest more than 1 hour for a match and maybe see all your efforts vanishing for a Pitch Invasion this is not really fun. Is stupid.
So - and this naturally is my personal opinion - till the match duration will be not less than 1 hour I would prefer a game reasonably fun, but over all "fair" and balanced.
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