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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:00 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

In Competitive division (as the name itself says) the purpose is playing in a competitive way.


See, the point is that you have decided that competitive means random. It does not. Or, not necessarily. That's an arbitrary interpretation.
Competitive could mean a zillion different things.
- It could mean "only create the best teams", because if you play Snotling or halflings it's obvious you are not trying to be competitive.
- It could mean "dont create or play weird, frontloaded teams with 0 rrs" because that's obviously a non-competitive choice.
- It could mean "only pick the established best skills", because it's obvious that if you pick dauntless as first skill for a goblin, you're not playing competitive.
- It could mean "Do whatever you want, but do your absolute best to win every game no matter the cost", because if you try and handoff in the last turn to your BoB in order to skill him, you are not playing competitive.
- It could mean all of the above.
- It could mean none of the above, and be just a cool name for the Ranked division.

Really. Every single definition listed above could be valid. So what you take for granted (it's the first one! It's the only one that makes sense!) is aboslutely arbitrary. It doesn't mean that it's wrong, mind you. But it's definitely arbitrary. And you always fight like it's the only logical definition. But it's not.

This leads you to write things like "Logic suggests that you should not be able to choose/avoid games/coaches/certain races in a Competitive division" or "GF is quicker ONLY if you dumbly and blindly accepts whatever offer people throw at you, which, 99 of times, it's not good for you (otherwise they would not bother to offer it)" like they are universal truths. But they are not.

As per the "Rank" and the problem of people gaming the system... who cares. We all game the system to a degree. Perfect random would mean to have one team for every race and simultaneously enter blackbox with every team every time. Reaching the top by only playing low tv undead instead of nobility is gaming the system too, in a way. So where do you stop? When are you satisfied? If you had your way and we only had the box scheduler, then you could start telling people who only play strong races that their rank is inflated and fake, and ask for them to mix their teams more... So where do you stop? It's a slippery slope. It's an illusion of control. Just let people do their thing, and if it really irks you that they game the system, be content because your high rank is genuine instead. There's no need to ask for the police to make them stop.

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Last edited by JanMattys on Sep 27, 2021 - 19:18; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think that Competitive means random.
MM should happen using a formula taking into account several things (tiers, match-ups, TV, number of games played).
When I say "blind MM" I mean using a system that pairs your team vs another team with a formula, without giving you the possibility to decide who your next opponent will be.
When I say "Competitive" I mean: "playing trying to achieve the best possible result for the race you are using, for that specific match-up and without picking/avoiding match/opponent/team".
It could be even a tie or a minor loss if you are using Goblins vs Dwarfs.
Anyway, picking/avoiding games is a BIG aspect of a competitive division and it should be avoided whenever possible, this is the important thing we should put the focus on.
Since there is a way to avoid it (the scheduler) it should be the only way to arrange matches in a Competitive division. In my ideal world it would be for sure.
If somebody wants to play for fun there is the League division, so I'm not against playing for fun or with a GF, just it should not happen in a Competitive division.
For fun coaches generally don't like to play vs competitive coaches and the other way around, but, apart from this sociologic aspect, the important thing is: if a coach is playing for fun and giggles and his opponent is playing competitively they are pursuing different goals. People pursuing different goals should not play in the same division (otherwise the division is not competitive anymore, is just a main division where you play games gaining and losing CR, with coaches having different goals playing all together).
Nothing wrong with that, but it's not really competitive.
It's an open challenge ranked division, not a really competitive division.

P.S. I'd like to play with 1 team per race (in the Box I activated max 1 team per race to provide variety to myself and my opponents), but everybody should do it too. A good compromise (because playing 28 races requires too much time to develop them) would be to activate 1 agile team, 1 bash team, 1 hybrid team.
That would be nice indeed.
MercutioT



Joined: Mar 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:40 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The scheduler Christer invented is not total random but it's better to arrange games.
At least it removes the "human picking factor" from the arranging game process.
Sometimes it can arrange a bad match-up, but most of times it works greatly (I played lots of Box games, so I speak because I experienced it) and most important, it is way quicker to find a balanced game.
GF is quicker ONLY if you dumbly and blindly accepts whatever offer people throw at you, which, 99 of times, it's not good for you (otherwise they would not bother to offer it).
If people want to play for fun nothing wrong with that, they can do it in League division. I do it when I want to play vs a friend of mine.
In Competitive division (as the name itself says) the purpose is playing in a competitive way.
Not everybody knows what a good/bad offer is and on the GF he can be easily fooled (or he can offer you a bad game for him).
So, given the 2 options: GF (which requires a degree of experience of the game, knowledge of the different tiers and skills of the teams and mutual willingness of both coaches to play a balanced and fair game) and Box scheduler (which can sometimes arrange a bad game, but most of times it's really impartial) the Box scheduler is the best way.
I don't fight, I just want to wake up the awareness of the people of the site, that's it. Call it "romantic stupidity". Doing impossibile things for the love of them.
I know things will not change, but users of the site (especially newcomers) must be aware that GF is a bad system to arrange games (unless they want to pick/be picked).


In one of your cringiest moments in last week's thread, you affirmed your belief in a correlation of games played on FUMBBL with coach skill.

Here are the numbers of games played by your last page of opponents:
26
942
61
615
20
3
128
114
13
3
34
15
32
318
202
114
45
678
627
71
55
908
35
153
34
45
385


Amazingly, despite all your years of infantile complaints about 'pickers', it looks like you're the biggest picker in the division. How humiliating.
(Gosh, half of them are still in the single or double digits... How did you find them all??)

And I'll note that this is without getting into the CR of these coaches (doesn't look good for you there, either) or the racial match-ups (like your CDwarf and Dark Elves that play exclusively against AV7 teams).

Oh, and if you think I've mischaracterized you and you want to defend yourself, try finding any coach on this site with a more lopsided record in this respect. You talk about pickers so often, I assume this information is at your fingertips. Go on. We're all waiting.

Looking at these numbers, I guess there are only three possible conclusions:
Either you are only accepting matches from inexperienced coaches you think you can dominate, or—for some absolutely mystifying reason—everyone who's played on this site long enough to know better has absolutely no interest in playing against you. Or both.

In light of this, I guess it makes perfect sense why you'd argue so feverishly for an automated matchmaker; once the influx of new blood slows, it could literally be the only way for you to still find an opponent: against their will.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll ignore the usual noise and add that I would actually find it quite useful if I could filter my own teams. Ideally I could select a division or an individual team to not show on the gamefinder. Currently I'm only looking for my [C] teams but have all the [R] teams and [L] teams (including NAF) showing which is... a very minor inconvenience I guess. Very Happy
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:46 Reply with quote Back to top

If I'm forced to play with GF only I reserve myself the right to assess the game offers because everybody does the same.
If I didn't filter the offers (like other coaches in the same division do) I would be at a disadvantage.
The expert coaches just offer bad match-ups (or don't offer games at all), fyi.
If I wanted to pick I would have played in Ranked, but I played in Box only, as you well know, and I'm saying that GF is a bad system. If I wanted to pick I would suggest to use it and not the scheduler.
That said, I often spotted you on GF but you never offered me a game. Feel free to do it.
In the mean time, our match record, since you dared to bother me:
https://fumbbl.com/p/matches?c=MercutioT&coach2=MattDakka

Looks like it's a positive record for me!

I would have challenged you but I suspect you would have not accepted, judging by the list on your About page: https://fumbbl.com/p/about?c=MercutioT
I mean, if you don't like me, why should I bother you with an offer? This is what I thought.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 27, 2021 - 20:15; edited 3 times in total
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If I'm forced to play with GF only I reserve myself the right to assess the game offers because everybody does the same.
If I didn't filter the offers (like other coaches in the same division do) I would be at a disadvantage.
The expert coaches just offer bad match-ups, fyi.
If I wanted to pick I would have played in Ranked, but I played in Box only, as you well know, and I'm saying that GF is a bad system. If I wanted to pick I would suggest to use it and not the scheduler.
That said, I often spotted you on GF but you never offered me a game. Feel free to do it.
In the mean time, our match record, since you dared to bother me:
https://fumbbl.com/p/matches?c=MercutioT&coach2=MattDakka

Looks like it's a positive record for me!


You will never, ever, EVER learn.
/facepalm

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 19:56 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Logic suggests that you should not be able to choose/avoid games/coaches/certain races in a Competitive division.


"Competitive" means whatever the commissioner says it means.

You could say that it is "competitive" because that is where the official tournaments are. Rules are in place to prevent "too much" cheating.

I would say that a league is not that competitive if the top teams/coaches are not mainly playing against others of their own level.

If Legends are only the top n% then random is not very competitive IMO as chances are you won't be playing vs another Legend.

So, I think you are talking Monkey Balls. Wink

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If I'm forced to play with GF only I reserve myself the right to assess the game offers because everybody does the same.
If I didn't filter the offers (like other coaches in the same division do) I would be at a disadvantage.
The expert coaches just offer bad match-ups, fyi.


So let me get this straight.
- You are competitive
- In ranked you pick because you reserve the right to only accept good matchups, like all expert coaches do.
- And you don't play a lot of expert coaches, because they offer unfair matchups.
- So you basically don't play Ranked because Ranked is full of people who behave just like you do when you play there.
- As a result you leave ranked because you can't stand to be picked and you don't feel the challenge when you pick.
- But still, somehow, a RANK that tells everybody how awesome you are is like the most important thing for you.
- As a result, you want Ranked to become Blackbox so that you can have your RANK, and also in the process burn the place where you couldn't find a loving home to the ground.

That's... an interesting take.
Talk about being the change you want to see in the world Laughing

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 20:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I became Legend by playing only in the Box, I have nothing to prove.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4092703
Have you ever had 181 CR by playing in the Box only? No? then think about improving yourself before talking about me.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 20:18 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I became Legend by playing only in the Box, I have nothing to prove.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4092703
Have you ever had 180 CR? No? then think about improving yourself before thinking of me.


I question your methods, not your results.
Also, I do not think of you, but you are everywhere everytime I try and read something. So I'm pretty much forced to read your ramblings. And as a result I feel the urge to tell you, every single time, that one thing is to love the game, and one thing is to have-it-your-way.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Could I suggest that anytime Dakka begins pontificating he be ignored for the remainder of the thread. I know it is tempting to let him keep talking and let him make himself look bad but it just gets old.

When he talks about the best way to build a team, it is interesting. When he starts talking about how the game should be played or built, his opinion is no better than anyone else's.

When it turns into a phallus measuring contest no one really wants to waste time reading it.
luxyluxo



Joined: Nov 26, 2012

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 20:45 Reply with quote Back to top

The Italians are just a passionate race and love a good debate , which honestly has been quite entertaining to read with some good arguments from both sides . I agree it is starting to dominate the thread a little too much . Though I would not mind spectating a match between these two fine gentlemen Smile
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
No league allows you to play as many games you want whenever you want.
A private league does not satisfy the daily urge to play 4 or more games.
Also, a private league forces to play according to a schedule, which is not always comfortable, not to mention people not showing up to the game or being late.


That is purely matter of organisation and personal life style.

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Last edited by mekutata on Sep 27, 2021 - 21:12; edited 1 time in total
Sharkrudi



Joined: Dec 19, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 21:01 Reply with quote Back to top

smallman wrote:
Now that blackbox is dead, gamefinder can have too many suggestions, so some new filter features would be great:

1. Can add races you never want to play vs.
2. Can add players you never want to play vs.


+1

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 21:43 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

In the mean time, our match record, since you dared to bother me:
https://fumbbl.com/p/matches?c=MercutioT&coach2=MattDakka


Ah, the old "I've beaten you more than you've beaten me, so my opinion is more valid than yours and you should shut up" argument.

Some people here play Blood Bowl, a game where teams and players have a beginning and an end, they enter tournaments (that simulate playoffs) and eventually get shelved. Which is what happens in the setting that the actual game is designed for (Leagues).

Some others instead, unilaterally decide that it is WRONG, that teams should go on forever and grind matches and grow bigger and better statfreaks, with the aim of... grinding some more games. Feels a bit aimless. It's not the game that everyone else is playing, for sure.

So, "I've beaten you at a version of the game only I play" doesn't really cut it. Develop some real arguments.
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