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Poll
In the next rule set
Re-drafting will be the same
19%
 19%  [ 9 ]
Re-drafting will be adjusted slightly
36%
 36%  [ 17 ]
Re-drafting will be adjusted a lot
12%
 12%  [ 6 ]
Re-drafting will be scrapped
10%
 10%  [ 5 ]
Why can't I just eat pie?
21%
 21%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 47


Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 18:55 Reply with quote Back to top

There has been lots of changes and rebalancing in BB over the years. Many fundamentals have always worked well and never changed (block dice), whilst others seem to get tweaked every update (skills). Re-drafting is effectively a completely new rule rather than an adjustment to longstanding rules. Is it here to stay?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 19:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I hope designers will realize it sucks and remove it in the next ruleset.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top

The whole point of re-drafting is to reset teams, while allowing you to keep some players at the same time, which is better - in my opinion - than starting completely fresh each season. It also incentivizes people to stay in the game after they developed their team somewhat instead of reseting or swapping teams for whatever reason.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 19:58 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem is that Re-draft is bad for teams starting without core skills, such as Vampires, Khorne, Nurgle, Lizardmen while doesn't affect as much teams starting with many core skills.
There were better and simpler ways to keep TV growth under control without penalizing the teams needing some development to be playable.
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
[...]There were better and simpler ways to keep TV growth under control without penalizing the teams needing some development to be playable.

Asking as a coach who didn't play BB for a long time, what are the other, better and simpler ways? I've heard aging rolls for players was used for a time. BB 2016 leagues had a system of redrafting similar to the new redrafting system, which seemed to work really well for our local TT league. What else was tried? What else could/should be tried?
(I'm asking because the original poll question asks about adjustments/changes anticipated in the next version. What might those changes be? What was used before to solve 'this' problem? What are the good/bad/ugly of each?)

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Not incoming changes, just an example of an alternative way to limit TV growth in leagues:
- No Season Re-draft;
- random MVP;
- Hard TV cap: that means that your League Commissioner decides the TV cap. It could be something between 1500-2000 TV (it's up to how much you want to let teams grow, if there are many tier 2 a higher TV cap is better, but it should not be higher than 2000).
If a team after a match has a TV higher than the TV cap some players must be fired in order to adjust it to the TV cap or lower;
- max +1 stat per each characteristic. Max MA 9. This should keep the stat freaks reasonably in check;
- Optionally, if you want to keep the stat freaks furthermore in check, you could decrease the level ups/skill slots to 5 or 4.

This way no matter how long the league lasts, teams and stat freaks will not become too strong.
Teams such as Vampires could be played without firing players after just 7 or 15 games.


Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 23, 2021 - 20:23; edited 2 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 20:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Redrafting is fine for some people. It could be fine for others with more options.
But as I always say, the commish & coaches can always do whatever they want to do anyway.
So, who cares? Mr. Green

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Last edited by koadah on Nov 23, 2021 - 20:33; edited 1 time in total
Bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 20:25 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I hope designers will realize it sucks and remove it in the next ruleset.


+1

And let them get rid of PA characteristic too as they are at it. Back to using AG for passing!
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 20:30 Reply with quote Back to top

razmus wrote:
Asking as a coach who didn't play BB for a long time, what are the other, better and simpler ways? I've heard aging rolls for players was used for a time. BB 2016 leagues had a system of redrafting similar to the new redrafting system, which seemed to work really well for our local TT league. What else was tried? What else could/should be tried?

Aging and TV were introduced together if I recall. Before that there was no hard mechanism to stunt team growth. TR (Team Rating) was based on SPPs, so a legend could continued to earn SPPS, but gain no additional skills - bloating the TR (I think it was 1 TR per 5 SPPS, the base TR being 100). Also, life was much deadlier, Claws, RSC, Mighty Blow (+1/+1), DP (+2/+2), etc. The injury table 2D6 was 10 = BH, 11 = SI, 12 = Dead, which coupled with the skills mentioned made it more likely players would die.

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Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 20:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Redrafting is far better than the old Aging rules, at least the coach has some control over limiting the team now. Personally I like the PA Stat it reminds me of 2nd Edition, it may need tweaking for some Races (I.E. Elves) as they should be far better at Passing (imo).

That said I think the rules should be given a good run before we should expect them to be updated/re-vamped again.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 21:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Bram wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
I hope designers will realize it sucks and remove it in the next ruleset.


+1

And let them get rid of PA characteristic too as they are at it. Back to using AG for passing!


Sounds like [SL16] Mr. Green

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uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 21:48 Reply with quote Back to top

well, people don't really like any artificial system for restraining the growth of their team, but they also dont like playing absurdly big teams that just stomp them all the time, so there needs to be a balance. Personally I think so many of the new rules are tailored towards the redraft rules, including skill progression, creation of fluff skills just to allow the random concept to work etc - I cant see a significant change happening soon as it would require a complete overhaul of the ruleset. And that's a lot of work.

I should add some people do like having big teams that stomp everyone else - but those people probably shouldnt be in charge of designing the rules.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 22:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Cutting to 2000 is one thing. 1350 is something else.

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The way I understand it is already adjusted by all leagues based on what they desire.
Some people won't be happy on some numbers that christer will decide on within C. But that's a slightly different topic.
But in general leagues will likely profit from a system that enables new teams to join and compete.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2021 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, if you want to enable new teams joining a league to compete the Commissioner can allow coaches to artificially "build" them to the desired TV from scratch (maybe without allowing to take Secondary skills and stat+).
No need to have a Season Re-Draft system.


Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 24, 2021 - 12:19; edited 2 times in total
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