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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 19:40 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
You can play rookie games against rookie teams forever with one team, and there's no balance problem.

Are you sure about that? TV 1000 Dwarfs vs TV 1000 Amazons forever has no balance problem? Razz
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I didn't make a Dwarf or Amazon team, now did I?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:00 Reply with quote Back to top

No, not saying that, I talked in general about your statement "You can play rookie games against rookie teams forever with one team, and there's no balance problem".
Since this is a general statement I made a general objection about it.
Imho there could be balance problems (not with the Human team you play, but generally speaking).
Humans are a balanced rookie team, other teams are not as balanced.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure. But you can build a rookie team in ways that allow it perpetually to find decent matches against other rookie teams. The Humans I made are one example, but you could sub in a lot of team races there and have a similar effect. If you're a tryhard, you can do it with High/Dark Elves, Orcs, or Undead. It doesn't work with all rosters (specifically it's rough with most AV7 teams), but I never claimed it did. I just said you can make a team that can do this and consistently get fair-ish games. I didn't say you could do this with just any team and get that result.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah ok, it's clearer now, thanks!
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 23:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I was a little curious (in terms of optimal matchmaker) if for say a team with 100 games and only random skills just fires any non optimal skill choices they could be at say 1100 TV but have 10 'good' skills on their players.

That's not the same effectiveness as a team with TV 1100 and five skills after three games.
Should a matchmaker include games played as well as TV?

I don't have an easy answer as a ten game team that has intentionally taken no skills and is at TV 10000 is also really not the same as a ten game team sitting at TV 1400 or so.

I know for myself in C if I notice a team is at 39 games but the same TV as my 4-6 game team I'll really look more carefully at those matchups.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 23:19 Reply with quote Back to top

The thought with matching by games, is not strictly by games, but matching by number of games played in your current season (and only teams in their own season 1, will be able to match against other teams in season 1).

In this way, yes, the guy who has managed to random skills that are worthwhile will have a lower tv.. but.. isn't there SUPPOSED to be a reward to randoming those skills? Otherwise, why bother at all?

I dislike that people are so fixated on tv as 'fair', when the game specifically doesn't WANT it to be fair. It wants it to be fair.. ish.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 30, 2022 - 00:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I think brand-new teams and teams in their first season should only be matched against either first-season teams or teams with no redrafted players and a TV at or below 1 million. Or even that you should have the option to redraft as rookie, effectively keeping the team name but rebuilding on a million, with no returning players allowed and none of the normal postseason restrictions on re-roll and staffing re-hires.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 30, 2022 - 11:26 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
I think brand-new teams and teams in their first season should only be matched against either first-season teams or teams with no redrafted players and a TV at or below 1 million.

Although it makes sense, the userbase could not be big enough to allow too tight pairing-by-Season.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 30, 2022 - 12:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

I dislike that people are so fixated on tv as 'fair', when the game specifically doesn't WANT it to be fair. It wants it to be fair.. ish.


TV isn't fair. Number of games isn't fair. The game generally isn't fair. Twisted Evil

Depending on how many teams there are in the draw you may just have to take what you can get.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 30, 2022 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Well with the new skill up options, I think in general coaches do like it, they have more control now.

Random skills is for high volume coaches, they can afford to take random primary on basically every player and re-cycle as they want. That is the benefit of playing a lot of games on one team. Does that give them an advantage, sure.

Picking your skills, cost more TV, is ideal for a coach who does not play a large # of games on one team. That coach is more likely to be a little more concerned about taking a chance on a Blitzer and giving him a random first skill. That coach does not have the time to invest in a single team so he wants to maximize the games he does have on that team. Is that coach possibly at a disadvatage? Maybe, but that is very variable and game to game.

IMO Iam thinking some coaches are way overthinking this. The skill up system is new BUT the core idea that some coaches can/will/maybe gain an advantage if they play a large # of games on a single team, "pimp" the team out so to speak. There is no way to stop that in a div like C, regardless of pick or scheduler, which is a open play, sand box type enviroment. Only a set schedule league style play can curtail that.

Just my thoughts

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 30, 2022 - 15:46 Reply with quote Back to top

My other thought is I do like how the C div will now have Pick & Scheduler play. Merge the old R/B and give all coaches who play in C the choice. I think that is a good feature that will be coming on line at some point. Ideas to curtail matches in C by putting up artificial constraints in C will just make getting a match even harder and to a certain point negate the advantage gained by the new style merge of the old 2 DIVS.

Now that being said I do think there does need to be some form of rookie team protection but if the parameters are to wide to try to curtail teams who seem to be "working" the system it will once again start making it harder to get games. It is a very "dicey" situation to try to find a balance between true rookie teams or newish teams and those trying to game the TV and get easier matches so to speak.

I do like the idea that a team does not have to redraft and could just hit a button and reset to base level of TV 1000 and you make a new team of players, just like initial roster creation.

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jun 30, 2022 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:


I dislike that people are so fixated on tv as 'fair', when the game specifically doesn't WANT it to be fair. It wants it to be fair.. ish.


Note I 100% agree. My musings weren't really in search of perfect parity in matchmaking. Just recognizing that the variables in imperfection of blood bowl get more complicated particularly in the oddities of perpetual online environments (not I didn't consider redrafting in my initial thoughts, that actually limits how randoms skew TV significantly)

I actually quite like random skills on teams I plan to play for a shorter period of time. In a 6-10 game regular season league random skills mean players who wouldn't level up get a shot at a good skill and most of the time have at least an "okay" skill. Particularly helpful for they players you really don't want to score on but sometimes get a TD or MVP.
Ohwatch



Joined: Sep 14, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2022 - 01:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I think War Dancer wood elves is so expensive.
And die, often.

So i stop to buy them else i'm at 11 players always.
I prefer players less stronger but more players for the win.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2022 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The new meta for Wood Elves is to either start with only one Thrower and 10 Linemen, leaving you with max DF and 3 RR. As an alternative, you could opt for a Wardancer, a Catcher, and 9 Linemen, with max DF and 2 RR. Endure your first season, get some good random lino skills, and then redraft with a full team and some good players. Like Vampires, they're really a second-season team in Second Season, but you can win with them right out the gate if you just rely on high MA and AG.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
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