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extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 00:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
i think teams like goblins do deserve to get the chance to win. I ALSO think they are so bad that the only real chance of this is if they destroy the opponent. So at this stage i agree with the OP. HOWEVER, next, i think aiming to destroy your opponent as the path to victory is generally bad.


To be fair if all you try and do is cause damage you are likely to break your cage or screen and lose the ball. A good coach will move their fanatic as a useful part of the screen for example. Same with the trolls, if you are desperate to get a block every turn they will end up out of position.

But even the strategy for scoring first and hurting later is in fact usually bound to cause damage if it succeeds. We have to move slowly so that means more blocks. The team will usually screen in front of the fanatic which means more blocks. Having poor access to tackle means we have to take on 3dbs to get thru blodgers or use the saw. If you get one of these players on the ground again coz of little or no tackle you HAVE to foul them if you wanna try to win. Plus obvs the general ease with which your opponent will likely pound you when they have the ball means if you see an opportunity to hurt without breaking your ball carrier protection you basically have to do it. But lets face it this is no different from the way most races are coached. I haven't noticed a charitable disposition from your average chorf coach, quite the reverse in fact! Why is it only bad for the game if goblins do it? Weapons? Thats why they almost always only get one drive.

I would say goblins when coached well are far from the worst team in the game, good coaching can still end up in a bad loss its true but thats true for all races in a dice game.

And one should definitely weigh with all the perceived negatives of facing a squad of tiny unhygeinic psychopaths the awesome hilarious randomness of the bomma! If you chuckle when they fumble and destroy their own cage or the ball carrier then you oughta be able to take it when they land one in the middle of a clump of your players and cause epic damage.

Basically, if you make a bet and face us don't chicken out coz you got more than you could handle, its pretty rough for us too most days!
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Right, and im saying you are playing goblins correctly, but when that is correct, and your only other choice is to lose miserably, thats not worth playing [if you care about winning and growth].

Also, im not convinced they are the worst either, but they are tier 3, and they are terrible.
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 01:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Im not sure bash races are that different. THe only real change is the jeopardy if it doesnt go to plan. I spose that does neccessitate consistent aggression but thats what i see from av9 races anyway.

Also in terms of growth their fragility forces you to be more precise in positioning coz you cant afford a mistake. So it definitely promotes coaching growth if you dont just treat them as a fouling race.

I tend to find that there is a better chance when coaching gobbos that the other coach is likely to see the game as a bit of light relief from more 'serious' matchups and more matches seem to be played in a fun spirit. The exception to that is when coaches think they signed up for a free lunch not realising that they might could be on the menu also... (tiny webbed hands rub together with glee)
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 02:07 Reply with quote Back to top

sure, i put old clawpomb teams into the same category. they shouldn't be played, because they do the same thing 'either destroy the other team, or lose'

yes, there are other things that are important, but that doesn't change the gameplan, those are just things to make sure that even with that game plan, you don't lose.
DauntlessFling



Joined: Feb 18, 2024

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 02:27 Reply with quote Back to top

so many times coaches have told me that they just want to get spp for their team. I wish their was a way to just make teams how we wanted and play them.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 02:55 Reply with quote Back to top

DauntlessFling wrote:
so many times coaches have told me that they just want to get spp for their team. I wish their was a way to just make teams how we wanted and play them.
Wouldn't have the same impact. "I got this skill when I pulled a Larson on DauntlessFling" will always beat "I decided I wanted this skill so that's what I gave my player."

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 10:40 Reply with quote Back to top

DauntlessFling wrote:
so many times coaches have told me that they just want to get spp for their team. I wish their was a way to just make teams how we wanted and play them.


They call that the [L]eague division.

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The_Great_Gobbo



Joined: Aug 04, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 11:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Der besterest fing ter do wen sumwun conceeds against gobbos iz ter rite a blog bowt it!
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
sure, i put old clawpomb teams into the same category. they shouldn't be played, because they do the same thing 'either destroy the other team, or lose'
To be fair, my main philosophy with every roster is always, 'if you do XYZ, you will maximize your chances of destroying the other team without paying an undue cost if it doesn't happen.' I do this because I know that if I destroy the other team, I'm probably going to win the game, so if I can make that more likely and keep everything else equal, hey, bonus. Should I quit playing entirely on these grounds? Do you only take Mighty Blow for the stuns?

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Endrophil



Joined: Nov 16, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 15:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Goblins don't cry and a concede is not only a mental victory!
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 17:22 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
sure, i put old clawpomb teams into the same category. they shouldn't be played, because they do the same thing 'either destroy the other team, or lose'
To be fair, my main philosophy with every roster is always, 'if you do XYZ, you will maximize your chances of destroying the other team without paying an undue cost if it doesn't happen.' I do this because I know that if I destroy the other team, I'm probably going to win the game, so if I can make that more likely and keep everything else equal, hey, bonus. Should I quit playing entirely on these grounds? Do you only take Mighty Blow for the stuns?


If the plan is 'ok, i'm going to outmuscle them, and make sure they can't hurt me, and remove their positioning options' and the second plan is 'and while i'm doing that, i'm going to also maximize removals', then the primary plan is not to destroy them.

goblins, can't do another plan. a chainsaw can't stunty dodge, can't risk getting hit but can't move after it uses the chainsaw - so its only plan is 'destroy the target' because anything else results in the removal of the saw. same thing with a fanatic. a troll doesn't have to remove the target, but the goblins themselves.. are stunty S2. they're going to be removed at a rapid pace, and there aren't enough trolls to rely on not being removed, which means they have to remove their targets first.

a bash team, that hasn't gone all in on clawpomb, is still positioning first, and using mighty blow to affect their opponent's choices - if you have mighty blow, they don't want to base you if they have another choice. a bash team like dwarves (without death roller) has to constantly focus on positioning, and the opponent can legitimately run circles around them (whether its successful or not, isn't the point), but if a dwarf team positions well, and controls the game, they can win even if they don't do any damage.

goblins who don't do damage, aren't going to win. they aren't going to stop their opponent's drive, and they aren't likely to score on their drive.

that's a very big difference.

playing bash is fine. playing 'i HAVE to destroy my opponent, because otherwise, i can't score' is not.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 18:24 Reply with quote Back to top

that's a very skewed view of how goblin teams win games, nelph

there's no need to dig up the examples

goblins win like any other team does, by outpositioning the opposition and using the resources they have to stop the opponent's score, while managing to score themselves (BB 101)

it's harder for them to do it because they're bad on purpose, so it's easy to say "they only won because they got lucky on the removals, BAD DESIGN"

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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 19:17 Reply with quote Back to top

what's wrong with removals? it's part of the game. otherwise we would be plaing Rush'n'Pass (insert dinosaur grumble here)

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 19:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Nothing wrong with removals, if thats not ALWAYS plan A.

My claim is that goblins are so bad, thats their only plan A - if they attempt to rely on positioning, and magically have a game where they did no damage, they will lose, every time.

Whether that claim is true or not is a different story, but thats my claim. And therefore [just like pure block first block last block only bad crp clawpomb] they shouldnt be played.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Nothing wrong with removals, if thats not ALWAYS plan A.


I want to believe in that zombie dodging away from a chaos warrior, so that there is also a plan B. but for most of bash teams that's not the case, removals are an essential part of the game.
for some teams it's harder, but not impossible: a well built elf blitzer is really scary.

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