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RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 15, 2024 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I miss these subtleties about playing low TV being a “temporary” or “learning” phase because then the real competition starts after 1300 TV ...

In superleague you play at TV 1270 for example.
What does “competitive” mean btw? Can anyone give me a definition of this?

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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 15, 2024 - 21:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Competitive: trying your best to defeat, playing in a correct, fair way and according to the rules, to achieve a higher score/ better result than the opponent(s), to be better than the opponent(s) in a match, competition, sport, game, race etc.

As an aside, notice that sometimes, for example in a league scenario, playing for a tie in order to reduce the casualties suffered could be more competitive, long term, than winning, losing many players and then lose the next games.
That assuming that the scored points in a specific division are enough to quality with a tie, of course.
This is a kind of "strategic, long term competitiveness" not regarding a one-off game scenario and implying a league/tournament/championship scenario.


Last edited by MattDakka on %b %15, %2024 - %21:%May; edited 1 time in total
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 15, 2024 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

and what does the TV have to do with it ?

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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 15, 2024 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Every team has a TV sweetspot, where its performance is at its best (i.e. the win rate is highest). Some teams are better at low TV, other ones at mid TV, other ones at high TV.
If an Amazon team faces Chaos at TV 1000, for instance, assuming evenly skilled coaches and average dice, the Amazon team will tend to win the match.
If an Amazon team faces Chaos at TV 2000 chances are that Chaos will defeat the Amazon team.
So, TV is tightly connected to the performance of a team.

I'm not Nelphine and I don't want to put words in his mouth, take this with a pinch of salt, not like truth carved in stone.
My own guess is that he wanted to say that at low TV not all the teams have all the skills to play decently (and be competitive, in the meaning of good performance).
While 1300 Amazons are very good, Chaos is not as good (just an example, there are many bad match-ups). At higher TV the teams can develop the skills to reduce the starting skill gap.
Just my guess, Nelphine should answer to that, though.

Competitive can have 2 meanings:
One refers to the mindset, the attitude of trying to win doing all your best, another meaning is: "good enough to compete in a reasonable way".

You can have a competitive attitude even with an uncompetitive team, but to have a better chance to win you need both the mindset and a competitive team (good enough to play and win).
Since some teams at low TV are not that competitive, maybe he wanted to say that at 1300 there can't be a full, proper competition (with a competitive mindset AND a competitive team together). Just a guess of mine.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 15, 2024 - 22:38 Reply with quote Back to top

ehhhhhhhhh???

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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 00:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Malmir wrote:
Pretty sure he is trying to state his interpretation of the intent of the rules as written down rather than his own opinion.

RDaneel wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
Because 1000 to 1300 (or lower than 1000 of course), and therefore the entire first season, is for learning the game, and shouldn't be considered competitive.



so all who participate in RRR are nice amateurs who don't want to play competitive?

Or who plays Trophy where the TV is below 1300 for 50% of the games?

I don't see how a lower than 1000 TV means NOT playing in competitive mode.


Thank you Malmir.

And no Matt, not quite.

What I'm saying is that the recommended redraft rules have a clear cut off. The expectation is that teams that have lasted longer than 1 season, will start the season at 1300. Stars are clearly an attempt to make teams less than 1300 have a fighting chance; ergo, teams under 1300, do not have a fighting chance without inducements. Since inducements are meant to give a fighting chance, not to make the team truly competitive, that means teams under 1300 are not meant to be competitive with teams that have been there more than one season.

While you can absolutely (and many do) enjoy playing at 1000 to 1300, and you can come up with rules (such as NAF tiers and the associated rules and skillsets that go with them) to make less than 1300 competitive, the default rules seem to heavily imply that teams that are under 1300 are still 'building', and not yet ready for winning a league - and therefore, are not competitive in that league.

Therefore, by the default rules, 1000-1300 is a growing time, meant to be 1 season long, and then in your future seasons after the first, you will be competitive, and should be capable of winning the league. The redraft cut off is then aimed at making sure all teams who are more than 1 season old, have the same starting place, so that they can all be competitive, regardless of how old the league is.

This also implies, that if you wanted, you could easily make the redraft cutoff higher, but the default rules would assume that you won't reach a higher cutoff in one season, which would then mean that teams that are both 1 or 2 seasons old would not be competitive, which the rules then seem to be recommending that this would not be a good idea, and so the redraft SHOULD be at a level that can be achieved by most/all teams in one season.



Please note, I am not saying that the ruleset ACHIEVES these goals, I'm just saying what they seem to imply about the game.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 00:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the explanation, Nelphine!
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 00:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Vamps have won 2 tourneys in the past year. It doesnt seem excessive to me. And I agree with the previous post that said that there are few enough methods to break down cages in the game these days. Cant leap no more, bommas are crapper than they used to be. Im in favour of anything that can leaven the dense cagefests that tourneys often are.

Coincidentally I've never noticed any great enthusiasm from coaches who are more conservative with their choice of races for anything that takes away from the capacity of an av9/10 team to reliably attrition their way to victory. So I'm sure vamps having some success is really grinding their gears!
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 03:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Majors have never been about skill ? just good draws and pimped up teams, no ? Same thing in most places like BBT ? Put orcs, dworf or in this case vamps in and be goodeplayer.

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
asteflix



Joined: Jan 20, 2014

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 05:27 Reply with quote Back to top

extremegrazedknee wrote:
Vamps have won 2 tourneys in the past year. It doesnt seem excessive to me. And I agree with the previous post that said that there are few enough methods to break down cages in the game these days. Cant leap no more, bommas are crapper than they used to be. Im in favour of anything that can leaven the dense cagefests that tourneys often are.

Coincidentally I've never noticed any great enthusiasm from coaches who are more conservative with their choice of races for anything that takes away from the capacity of an av9/10 team to reliably attrition their way to victory. So I'm sure vamps having some success is really grinding their gears!


Vampires won 3 majors in 2024 so far ;

Bazakastine won Steel Gauntlet II https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4525154

Asteflix won Warpstone Open XVII https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4527349

Spinball won UI XX
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4545387

In other words, Vamps currently haven't lost a major in 2024. I think it's fair to say they should be monitored, because that's an insane record.

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''How do you get a cat out of a blow-up doll its stuck''
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 06:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Although Baza managed to get an insane team in his 15 game box run for the first gauntlet, I think that due to the limited match cut off, vamps won't dominate the gauntlets - they will do very well, but that's fine. It's the other majors where we might see real dominance (and have so far this year).
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 09:26 Reply with quote Back to top

And do anyone care ? Majors have alwayw been pimped up teams ? This time its vamps, that you dont like and not orcs or dwofs ?

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 09:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Real tournaments are rumbles. We nwed big star on em.

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 09:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Best solution is quit teams on 15 games and then make em league teams and then play with kids

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 16, 2024 - 10:10 Reply with quote Back to top

@Nelphine "teams under 1300 are not meant to be competitive with teams that have been there more than one season."

Ok sure, or more broadly: team building is probably intended to be (slightly) stronger than taking inducements


The rest though, you're making a bunch of assumptions and then concluding GW's intention

EDIT
Re-reading what you wrote, are you saying that 1000-1300 is not intended to be balanced, competitive Blood Bowl?

Or, just that, if you join an established league then your first season is going to be one in which you're building the team and are unlikely to win the league?
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