James_Probert
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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 Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 19:45 |
 
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| Reisender wrote: | | edit: i remember someone posted sth about a tool for discussions like this - does anyone remember where as it would be really helpful |
Yep. It was playcreator.com |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 19:54 |
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I often use the "everybody stands on the back line" defence because it is quick, easy, and hard for me to cock up. It also protects vital players from unlikely but unfortunate accidents.
Eventually you are going to have to consider the effects of frenzy and grab but lets keep it simple for now.
| Purplegoo wrote: | There is a fashionable setup amongst some TT types I play with that looks something like this;
_ _ _ _ | X X_ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _| _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X| _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X| _ _ _ _ |
Those mancs are funny  How about...
_ _ _ _ | X X_ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _| _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ T| _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _| _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ T| _ _ _ _
Extending the double line trades a 4+ dodge for two 3+ dodges (if the oneturner is AG4) so is better as long as the oneturner is not AG5 or higher. Potentially they could slip out of the right side of the trap with one dodge less but if you have a single dedicated tackler (DT/tentacles) then placing it in either of the T positions would resolve this problem.
PS, having looked at the issue briefly I think that the most important thing to consider is the correct formation of the LOS. You can only start to think about the best way to block the oneturn attempt once you know where the oneturner is going to be starting their run and what squares an attacker needs access to to setup the pushes in the first place. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 19:56 |
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| Celyn wrote: | | 4/36 for a 9, not something I really take into account. If it happens, it's not good but it doesn't invalidate the defense completely. |
Well, adding a 1/9 to proceedings is worth thinking about. I have to admit, I always assume the QS is coming, so I rarely have the guys only a square back. That's not something I've ever sat and worked out (hence the thread), it's just seemed natural to me to assume QS is coming, if that makes sense? When we get the 'best' setup, the 1/9 will be factored in, I guess.
Agreed, Reis. We can do better than everyone a square away from the EZ. I'll have a bash at #2 later, it looks tough at first look.
| SillySod wrote: | | Those mancs are funny |
I can't remember now whether that line is there or not (the free row), I'm doubting my memory, but I have heard it described as the 'best' D. I think we have a wider pool here to see if that's true.  |
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Celyn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 31, 2010 - 20:02 |
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The way I see it is that QS will always help the offence, at least somewhat, regardless of defensive plan, and it's rare enough that optimising for the other 8/9 cases has better value. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:14 |
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just had a short look at my #2 myself (thanks for the playcreator link) -> i guess its nice vs ma 8 but fails vs ma9...
@ sillysod: shouldnt the guys in row 2 be directly behind LOS to make pushs harder?
_ _ _ _ | X X_ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ T| _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _| _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ T| _ _ _ _ |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:22 |
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I sometimes use;
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
Works quite well for me with a couple of guards in among them. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:28 |
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i like this duke tyrion
have seen sth like this for chaos and orcs
_ _ _ _ | _ _ 5 X 5 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | G G _ _ _ G G | _ _ _ _
for rats it is a pain to push st5 (or4) with 2 guards (with 5 being a troll and a +st chaoswarrior or the like) and G being guarders |
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asharak
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:37 |
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not a fan of the 2-gap-1 LOS, doesn't make pushing all that much harder and makes QS much more useful. Also, as observed, vs woodies they'll happily run round the empty side, easy enough to push that far. Still one bad dodge. Woodies with a frenzy would love you for that setup no bad dodges at all. That said, you did say no stat ups or doubles.
Skaven with ROgre would still be a threat to that setup, though relying on a big guy for anything = trouble.
Open up a few doubles though and I actually prefer that to the straight line across the back - daunt (+horns if possible) blitzes can totally stuff the line at the back approach.
Generally I go for making the initial push hard but vs wardancers this still isn't great. I quite like having a spread LOS with...
| Code: |
____|x__x__x|____
___x|_xx_xx_|x___
__x_|_______|_x__
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Again, QS makes this horrible though, and its not particularly resilient. Generally they'll set up to one side though so you can kick deep to the opposite corner (assuming Kick skill) and it'll add a slight extra bit to the rolls. Not much though, given its only a couple of squares further over than a standard setup. |
Last edited by asharak on %b %31, %2010 - %20:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:37 |
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I quite like it if your oppo can't get 2D somehow pushing the edge guy of the LOS (Duke). Although, if you've got enough games played to have a couple of ST5s, I assume the Rats will have a couple of Guards and a RO to do the business! |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:40 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | I quite like it if your oppo can't get 2D somehow pushing the edge guy of the LOS (Duke). Although, if you've got enough games played to have a couple of ST5s, I assume the Rats will have a couple of Guards and a RO to do the business! |
It's not perfect by any means, but with the guards in place it causes alot of problems.
Also, with the 2 wide players and the 2 middle players (row 3 and 4) even if they get a couple of pushes in, they still have a headache trying to find space for the next stage. |
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asharak
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:43 |
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Ohhh, just seen something very wrong about my setup, ignore it! Bleh. |
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Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 20:57 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | I quite like it if your oppo can't get 2D somehow pushing the edge guy of the LOS (Duke). Although, if you've got enough games played to have a couple of ST5s, I assume the Rats will have a couple of Guards and a RO to do the business! |
believe, at the end of the half rats wont be able to field all of them... in addition, depending on the RO for the push is very risky 1/6 fael, plus no RR on faelpush |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 21:33 |
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| Rawlf wrote: | | Purplegoo wrote: |
_ _ _ _ | L L T_ C _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X_ X L _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _B _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X| _ _ _ _
_ X _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X| _ _ _ _
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Purplegoo, as your woodelf opponent I'd try to attack like this.
B would push the sigular LoS guy between tree and catcher, and from there I'd chain the Catcher towards the tile above the rightmost X. From there it would be 4+2+ dodging and gfi.
So basically I'd need one push more but I get easier dodging compared to the standard EZ defense.
Or do I have this wrong somehow? |
It's even easier: block down the pair and then blitz from the empty square that was formely inbetween and move the lone guy to the right and into your half. That way you can push so that the catcher just has to do a single 2+ dodge. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 21:53 |
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Could you lose one of the back defenders? If you can do without the one on the left then you ought to be able to secure it, especially with one or two dedicated tacklers. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %31, %2010 - %22:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
May 31, 2010 - 22:02 |
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Of course, the other OTS defence to mention is Stunties.
I always setup my line 5 squares from the end zone, leaving the opponent 3 choices;
1) Land short and GFI,
2) Land on my line and have the chance to land diminshed, or
3) Aim long, but take increased chance of a fumble. |
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