pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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 Posted:
Apr 19, 2011 - 04:54 |
 
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| The_Murker wrote: | | Does anybody have a reason they would not like this idea? All I can think of is that Chaos would be disappointed getting bashed back for a change. Any body? Anybody have a valid reason? |
Well, the fact that Christer and the boys spent months working on this a year or so back makes me think that they did what they did for good and considered reasons.
Just sayin. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 19, 2011 - 04:55 |
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Murker...take your humans and head on over to ranked. NO ONE DODGES humans in ranked and you will not have to bash your skull against the box after every activation...take it from someone who knows. |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Apr 19, 2011 - 05:03 |
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| The_Murker wrote: | | Another guess at a number and speculation that it has no real bearing of any concaquence. Incorrect I believe. This is not an anti Clawpomb thread, its a "make the Bot random and fair" thread. |
7. If the two teams are of the same race, multiply suitability by 0.97
As i said, 3% difference. Some of us were around when the matchup system was orignally being devised and do have vauge memories of it. The point of this thread is the same point i've made many times.
The offical rules use TV to base the value of a team. However it is well understood that this value isn't matched well with ability to win in a number of ways.
The only way to make it a far matchup IMO would be to use a different method like the onld TS.
However there are many different view on this, as many consider the build of a team to be your call. And should not have weight on the matchup.
(I think the lot of them are cherry pickers)
Your angry, agressive, know it all, opinions only make you look like an arrogant fool. Just so you know 
Edited: My spelling & again. |
Last edited by Igvy on %b %19, %2011 - %10:%Apr; edited 3 times in total |
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RedDevilCG
Joined: Jan 09, 2010
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Apr 19, 2011 - 05:20 |
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Shouldn't the box just be random within a plus/minus TV range, races and coach rating be damned? |
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PorkSol
Joined: Jan 10, 2008
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Apr 19, 2011 - 05:21 |
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Something seems very wrong with the suitability for mirror matches.
I have played 164 games as Orcs in the new box, across multiple teams.
I always stop a given team in the mid 1700s or earlier, so these stats reflect matchmaking at TV ranges where there are a variety of opponents, giving the scheduler the option to avoid mirrors. (High TV stats are flawed because often there may be only two nurgle teams queuing, so it will have no choice but to make that matchup).
Orcs are the second most popular team in the Box stats.
Yet I have only played Orc vs Orc 5 times in 164 games.
For comparison I've played the relatively less popular Norse 14 times.
Makes me think that the mirror match penalty is more severe in practice than might be expected.
It's possible that Orcs just aren't playing a lot of games though. (Could be a lot of active teams, but a low number of games on each)
If the gap is this severe for everybody, it could go a long way to explain why you have to play so many games against the most popular teams... they can't play each other if there is another optional available, so instead of one dwarf vs dwarf match and one skaven vs slann match, it keeps giving you dwarf vs skaven and dwarf vs slann over and over... thus ensuring that you get far more matches against dwarves (or whichever popular team) than you would otherwise.
EDIT:
Oh and for comparison, I've played 37 games as Undead.. and played Undead vs Orcs 5 times. So that leads me to believe it's not a coincidence, but a result from the scheduler formula. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Apr 19, 2011 - 05:42 |
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I would say that the scheduler probably isn't the problem; my theory is that certain coaches (with their particular teams) are online at particular times. So, in order to get an accurate representation as to whether or not the box scheduler actually has problems, for the next week or so, take screenshots every time you try to get a game on Box.
More than likely, since chaos teams are becoming popular recently, if you play at popular times, you'll have a higher chance to be matched to a chaos simply from lots of them being in the queu when you play; however, if the chaos coach regularly plays at off-times (as well as once in a while at a popular time), he won't nescessarily hit as many chaos teams, since he'll be hitting whatever is available. If we could get stats as to who is available to the box at each time, then we would see if there were any problems. Having looked at Christer's algorithm (at least what he had posted back when), it looks like it should be working fine, and while it seems sucky for you, if only say 10 people are having 'only-play-vs-chaos-matchups'... well.. 10 out of all the Box players is actually not that bad, and is statistically likely to happen. Thus it can easily be percieved as being a 'problem', while in reality you just happen to be that one very unlucky guy that shows up in all systems that have this many variables. (Also note: My lizardman team a few games back got smashed to heck by a halfling team. Deaths, serious injuries, KO's galore, badly hurts, everything. In that way, I was probably the 'unlucky guy' out of the system of all the varied lizardman vs halfling people. Seems bad to me, but statistically.. it had to happen to someone, sometime, and it just happened to be me.) |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 19, 2011 - 06:21 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | | licker wrote: | | Woodstock wrote: |
I'm suggesting every thing is possible, and unless you are going to evaluate each draw, you can not make any conclusions about what those data actually mean. |
No, you're suggesting that something is not possible. |
I do? I thought I was suggesting it was very unlikely mirror matches would happen. Not that it was not possible. |
You may have also suggest that, however, that was not what I was referring to. Apparently it's not worth continuing a discussion with you on that line though, so you win, whatever the prize you were looking for, it's yours.
Anyway, so far no one has been able to express the rational for not simply having an unmodified random drawing based off of TV. I'm sure there are reasons, but the formula, no matter how clever, is still just twinking the numbers to suit someones perspective on how to make 'fair' 'perfect'.
A fools errand if you ask me, but of course, you didn't.  |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Apr 19, 2011 - 06:23 |
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Seriously people, don't argue with Skynet, err, Woodstock. It can only end badly.  |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 19, 2011 - 08:25 |
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| RedDevilCG wrote: | | Shouldn't the box just be random within a plus/minus TV range, races and coach rating be damned? |
Yeah, I'm with this. I think mirror matches are vastly the most boring of all BB, but, if this 3% still exists, skewing against them seems at odds with the idea of B.
I must say though, I seem to get bags of variety, far more than I should on average when I look at the quantity of each team on Blackbox central. Perhaps I’m lucky, perhaps the OP is just unlucky. 10 games seems a terribly small sample size to me. My Woodies, for instance, have played 19 bot'd games and 17 different races. Not bad?
Even if Chaos aren’t playing other Chaos too often, surely Pact, Nurgle, Khemri and Undead (and Underworld, eh, Random?  ) are doing the job of trimming? I reject the idea that Chaos are sitting with their feet up whilst the rest of us are getting creamed left, right and centre.
Humans, by definition, are going to get smacked around in B. If you look at the quantity of bash vs. non bash teams coaches choose to run, you have to expect that you’ll play more bash than not. The formula shouldn’t protect you. Perhaps R is for you. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 19, 2011 - 09:03 |
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Yup Pgoo is right. Humans are always going to get smackes around a lot. Because they are a very very pooor race now apart from their first 5 games. CRP has made them an even worse team than before IMO. There are a lot of Clawpomb teams out there at the moment I agree butI dont think it is possible to avoid them no matter how the scheduler works because there are just so many coaches playing with those teams.
The problem is people have seen an easy way of winning matches, by using a combo of skills that is OP and they have seen some very succesfull teams using them and are trying to emulate them to varying degrees of success. Dont blame the site though, this is an issue with CRP not fumbbl imo. |
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Ullakkomorko
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
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Apr 19, 2011 - 09:03 |
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My box Chaos team has played 5 out of 22 games against other Chaos.
I'm ok with mirror matches and I'd like the scheduler to heavily favour dwarf on dwarf mirror matches so that others would get to play against them less. |
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Smeesh
Joined: Oct 29, 2005
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Apr 19, 2011 - 09:04 |
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Easy way. Look at the scheduler. Make it totally random and propably with a bit higher TV diffrence. More inducements are fine.
Let the 2200 TV Chaos play 1900TV Elves with 300 enducements for extra appos, babes and bribes.
Greetings
Smeesh |
Last edited by Smeesh on %b %19, %2011 - %10:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Apr 19, 2011 - 10:33 |
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The_Murker
I am sorry, but really fail to see your argument based on your personal experience of having played far too many Chaos teams in your opinion.
You say that Chaos teams does not face each others? Did you actually take a look at the top chaos teams and see what they have played against the most?
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=teams&group=&order=&nav=10&race=42
I just quickly ran through the teams, but if you like to numbers and statistics be my guess and go and play around with it.
By looking through the top teams I see that they play Chaos,Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Nurgle and Orc the most. In nearly all the teams one of these teams are the one team the chaos coach has faced the most. So that is 30 teams checked with roughly 1000+ games
So now we take a look at the BlackBox central
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blackbox
The same pattern we see here. Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Nurgle and Orc are also the top 5teams here. The most popular ones.
So that your human team should actually face these team group more than let us say elf. Most likely this is that there are so many teams of the top teams that they cover the whole TV range from 1000TV to 2000+ TV. While let us say the elf group are not as popular, therefore less team pool from 1000TV to 2000+TV to pick from.
Just an example:
If your team is 1300TV
A Chaos team of 1270TV
Wood Elf team of 1000TV
High Elf team of 1500TV
Slann team of 1540TV
Chaos team of 1780TV
Chaos of 1900TV
Halfling 900TV
Most chaos team active = Check
Chaos teams cover a wider TV range than other teams = Check
You get matched against the Chaos 1270TV because it is the best match.
Sure the wood elf and the High elf might have been more fun to get and maybe in some cases more equal based on skills selection.
But before you actually claim something is wrong, then dont sololy based it on your own experience and get a large sample before making a claim.
The box have always got more bash teams than soft/ball teams. If you want more matches against elf teams then begin to persuade people to play elf teams then.
edit: I assume one coach activate one team. If this is not the case, then see woodstock posts in this thread. |
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anisdrin
Joined: Apr 10, 2009
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Apr 19, 2011 - 11:00 |
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I was thinking the issue a little more.
If we had a pure random scheduler, we will probably soon start asking for correction factors. Now we have some correction factors and we are asking for different ones.
This things are never good enough for everybody.
And I agree with other guys the problem is game balance at higher TV's,.. not the scheduler.
But the same can be said by other teams at lower/middle TV's.
I thought that spiraling expenses will trim the teams at high TV, but it seams that they don't do it enough.
just some thoughts... |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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Apr 19, 2011 - 11:18 |
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Is the issue with fairness or variety?
If its fairness, I see no problem as the scheduler matches on the assumption that the game is a 50/50 result (or as close as). It doesnt take into account how likely your team is to get smashed. So a 1-0 win to you but with 8 of your players SI'd is probably considered a fair game by the scheduler.
If its variety then its not really an issue with the scheduler just and issue with the teams people activate. I was quite heavily chaos orientated back in the day but have since created a lot of new teams of different races. Sadly none of these ever seem to get paired up.
Still, an adjustment could be made where the suitability of a matchup against a certain race decreases the more you have played them in the past x games. This would potentially disuade a few fair matchups but offer a wider variety of opponents.
Or, sack of the scheduler and just do random pairings. Everyone likes inducements! |
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