WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 18, 2014 - 22:05 |
 
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Ok folks,
Time has come to talk about small tweaks to some of the Stunty teams again. This is a follow on to my suggestions and your feedback from the previous thread and from comments and suggestions I have received since. The main goal here is to help out a few of the under-played weaker teams and reign in a few of the “monster” teams. Remember, some or all of these changes may or may not happen, and the timeline for it to happen (or not) is undecided.
So let’s go…
Squig Herders
I hear a lot of complaining about this team, on par with C’Flings, maybe more. Playing against them more and with them, I have found that, while they can be highly unreliable, they almost always have a fall-back skill/Reroll that bails them out. This means they aren’t as wild and zany as they really should be. As I was being decimated by Lorebass’ Squigs we had a great chat about this and tried to pinpoint the issues. What we confirmed between ourselves was this:
1. The Squigs are meant to be VERY dangerous (ST4, AG4, A & S access, MB, Leap, etc.), but alos highly unreliable. Yes, they have RS & Blood Lust, but by carrying a large number of RRs, you can get around this relatively well and the feeding on your team is usually less than what you take out of the opponents teams. So what do we need? Loner! I hear the cries that 3 negatraits is too much, but I say they are wild eating machines, Loner works. More craziness all around.
Verdict: + Loner
2. Pro. Not a word I would use to describe a Goblin madly trying to stay on top of a bounding Squig as they dart about the pitch. Pro on the Hoppers allows them so many liberties from an (almost) 50% recovery rate from BL, to RR’ing 3D blocks, which is a huge bonus in Stunty for killing things.
Verdict: - Pro, -10 cost
Chaos Flings
They are hated like no other in the Leeg, because they can take apart teams at will. So what makes them so good at this?
1. Having two Spawn with (almost default skill choice) tentacles helps out a LOT. And with Wild Animal, they never lose their tackle zones, so they can indefinitely tie up 6-8 players between the two of them. Since we are moving away from the Minotaur model, Bone-head or Really Stupid would be a better option. This means they can lose TZs and may need babysitting (RS).
Verdict: - Wild Animal, + Bone-head OR Really Stupid, -10 cost
2. The saws strike fear into many opponents. I think that short little legs carrying those big kitchen saws might struggle. Getting to a target, but staying out of range before hand, is a big part of using saws wisely. A slower saw would make them trickier to play.
Verdict: - MA
3. Halflings with mutations are annoying as heck. X=Arms, Big Hand, oh my.
Verdict: +5 to cost
4. The head carver really should have his knife though. This is a buff, but not nearly as much as what is being taken away.
Verdict: + Stab
Eshin
This is lifted from the old thread as it was mostly agreed upon. The Eshin need something more to help them out, and I think a bit of staying power might be that edge.
This roster was "over-costed" more than any other roster based on what my Stunty cost tool said it should be. This was mostly because people feared the old Eshin team that dominated. The new Eshin can dominate, but are too expensive and fragile to maintain for more than a few games. The proposal is that the Adepts would be dropped 5gp in price. Instead of dropping the Night Runner (NR) and Assassin costs, I would rather see AV7 for some durability. This represents their greater skill and status as they approach the level of the Gutter Runners.
Verdict:
Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)
There are some other small tweaks I am thinking of (I hate mass regen in Stunty), but these are the major ones I want to address first. Mostly to help fix a few of the crazier teams and bring the playing field a little closer together. |
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Last edited by WhatBall on %b %16, %2014 - %20:%Oct; edited 3 times in total |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Feb 18, 2014 - 22:21 |
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My first question would be do we have data to back up these (largely anecdotal and subjective) takes on which rosters need changing? It seems like, just as in the big leagues, there are a few vocal opponents of some races, but at least as many who disagree. e.g. while I like the fluff thinking behind the changes to Squigs, I can't say they have ever seemed more effective to me than, say, Cheaters, Fgobs, or Strigs. And similarly Cflings. I think the dislike of these 2 teams particularly is like the CPOMB-rage we see in the bigs, because on a good game, they can smash teams up with apparent ease. I suspect that those occasions stick in their opponent's minds more easily than the many occasions where a saw takes himself out first turn, a spawn roars half the game away, and lino cflings pop like bubble wrap in the hand of an angry 6 year old, or the times when Squigs implode in comedic fashion.
The stats for win %age and TD/cas rates for and against that we've had after some of the previous majors would make a much firmer foundation for this kind of discussion. |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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Feb 18, 2014 - 22:23 |
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Eshin still exist? Dang, learn something every day!
Good ideas here IMO. Anything that supports weirdness and bizarre play in stunty, I am all for. We have plenty of room to bash on fumbbl, so it's hardly a novelty.
Anything in mind for Snotlings?
Re: xnoelx
In addition to stats, I think that overall we should have more open ears for certain voices. Mainly that the anti-xyz contingents that we listen to should have played both as and against xyz.
For instance I often complain about Squigs, but have never played AS them so nobody should listen to me 
Conversely I sometimes hear that Horrors are OP, and I stand here saying "Are you kidding me?" Through a lot of experience, I learned that playing with Horrors and trying to win games is an adventure on the best of days. |
Last edited by Beerox on %b %18, %2014 - %22:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 18, 2014 - 22:25 |
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Squigs and C'Flings are two of my favourite teams (that I have played quite a lot), but I have to be honest and say most of the time I just destroy other teams with them (and it is not my coaching). I'm trying to take a bit of reliability out of them, not the kill-power, the reliability is what allows them to demolish other teams wholesale. |
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Lorebass
Joined: Jun 25, 2010
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| WhatBall wrote: | | (and it is not my coaching) |
Yar, Squigs are intense. The only time I have really been on the losing end of the game is when my dice are ick (= multiple BH bloodlusts a turn) or the other guy has squigs himself (Darn you azure and 6+ pickups!) or Cflings.
So I approve of the changes (also that WB was leaning towards a harsher anti-squig sentiment when we were talking about this and i was destroying him... with squigs) |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Feb 19, 2014 - 05:09 |
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Squigs: I play with and against. My squigs were hellaciously good to start even though I avoided the obvious kill-stack in favor of DT squigs. I approve of the suggested changes.
Cflings: I don't play them but I play against them A LOT. My main complaint vs. them is they're too damn many. On the whole though I don't find them overly concerning other than the ease at which the Spawn become kill-stack Legends. Saws can be dealt with...the 0-1 Head Carver is nice but not OP relative to other rosters. Perhaps Mutation on doubles for the Spawn would trim them back sufficiently while leaving the rest alone? (Yes, I know from a fluff standpoint removing normal M access for the Spawn is counter-intuitive, but it's the Tent Claw PO spawn that are so nasty.) Also, removing regen from the Spawn would make them a bit more fragile long term and less likely to become those kill-stack monsters to begin with.
Eshin: Don't play them and rarely play vs. them. Clearly in need of a buff in order to get more players imo. Approve of the suggested mods. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Feb 19, 2014 - 07:03 |
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I think the nerfs for both flings and squig teams are too much.
Adding loner to squigs and removing pro from riders too is massive. They go from sometimes unreliable to poor. I would say loner to the normal squigs is ok and will lose enough matches itself. The idea is supposed to be small tweaks.
I haven't used flings but it seems like a few too many adjustments. One tweak down to both should help. |
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Motskari
Joined: Dec 03, 2005
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Feb 19, 2014 - 08:53 |
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Removing wild animal and adding bone head or really stupid to spawns just helps them to tie more people with their tentacles. 4+ move turns to 2+ move. I have nothing against changes, just saying. Keep up the good work with stunty! |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Feb 19, 2014 - 09:17 |
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I wouldn't add bone head to the spawn, I don't think there is any need to really, and a 2nd negatrait will probably create bugs.
The saw ma is a good idea.
Not sure about the squig slayers nerf, though I do agree that gnomes along with squigs are far far far too good atm. So I would be happy to try that out.
Squigs yes deffo, there is no way they should ever have had pro. That must go. They are currently the best team by miles.
The eshin change; assassins deffo need av7 though I'm not fussed about the other changes tbh. I found the team to be pretty good. I think I only lost to the two most broken races in the game squigs and gnomes |
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Last edited by Garion on %b %19, %2014 - %09:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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gjopie
Joined: Oct 27, 2009
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Feb 19, 2014 - 09:40 |
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I think the idea is to add bonehead and remove wild animal, not have both.
And the OP says "Squig Slayers", but I think it means "Squig Herders". |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I like the changes, and the fact they complement each other well. I think the CFlings getting nerfs with the small buff thrown in is nice too. These are the team I've used the most (still not a lot mind, for shame!) and even though they are being reduced in power I couldn't disagree with anything said.
I'm not sure the Eshin changes go far enough to make them more playable or competitive/fun. Again, I don't have a lot of experience with them but as I sit and look at the roster I can't really see where their strengths are. They're meant to be fast but as a team are considerably slower than Skinks, the other fast team. Maybe give the Adepts Ma7 too and see how it goes? The assassin also seems overcosted/underpowered. I'd look at something like this:
Assassin - AV7, Ma8, +Shadowing, -Claw
NRs - AV7
Adepts - Ma7
I will say again that I'm not an experienced Eshin player so this is all just theory. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Feb 19, 2014 - 09:59 |
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Eshin are good, but soo overly reliant on one player and if he dies early on you are in serious trouble. |
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Afro
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 19, 2014 - 11:43 |
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I am not that sure about Squigs being overpowered. Even with pro, they are unreliable with their lack of G skills and 1 (Squigs 2) nega traits. And AV 7 makes them weak as stunties (when it comes to saws or fouls). And the team has nothing more than a few unreliable "big guys" that decimate their own team (no G access, no weapons, no regenerate).
So please, don't change them. Maybe raise the cost of RRs. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Feb 19, 2014 - 11:45 |
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wow, a 4th negatrait on squigs (yes, they also have no hands).
why not making them ag3 instead?
actually what's needed is more special rules and racial characteristics, but that's not possible now.
for example:
* Squig hoppers can fall off the squig.
* squigs with no baby sitter gains ball & chain (or some sort of random leaping) |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 19, 2014 - 15:02 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | I think the nerfs for both flings and squig teams are too much.
Adding loner to squigs and removing pro from riders too is massive. They go from sometimes unreliable to poor. I would say loner to the normal squigs is ok and will lose enough matches itself. The idea is supposed to be small tweaks.
I haven't used flings but it seems like a few too many adjustments. One tweak down to both should help. |
I understand your concerns, but Squigs right now are one of the two best teams in the Leeg, and they are simply not supposed to be. They are a group of crazy mushroom eating night Goblins who ride and herd vicious animals. They are supposed to be chaotic and all over the place. I've played them a lot, and they don't feel that way.
| Motskari wrote: | | Removing wild animal and adding bone head or really stupid to spawns just helps them to tie more people with their tentacles. 4+ move turns to 2+ move. I have nothing against changes, just saying. Keep up the good work with stunty! |
I disagree completely. It makes them less effective. Now with WA a move is 4+, but they don't lose TZs if they fail, so they can still cage, screen, etc. safely with their tents. Same for blocking, a 1 is not a huge deal, the roar and hold on to everything. With Really Stupid, another player would have to come to help them block/move on a 2+, and if they fail they lose their TZs, and another Fling is placed in the firing line.
| Garion wrote: | I wouldn't add bone head to the spawn, I don't think there is any need to really, and a 2nd negatrait will probably create bugs.
The saw ma is a good idea.
Not sure about the squig slayers nerf, though I do agree that gnomes along with squigs are far far far too good atm. So I would be happy to try that out.
Squigs yes deffo, there is no way they should ever have had pro. That must go. They are currently the best team by miles.
The eshin change; assassins deffo need av7 though I'm not fussed about the other changes tbh. I found the team to be pretty good. I think I only lost to the two most broken races in the game squigs and gnomes |
I meant remove WA and add B-h or RS.
Sorry about the Squig layer typo, should be Herders. Not sure where the Gnome hate is coming from, but they are an average team to good team, definitely not great.
If your Eshin only lost to Squigs and Gnomes, you are far better a coach than me. Mine get annihilated by everything.
| gjopie wrote: | I think the idea is to add bonehead and remove wild animal, not have both.
And the OP says "Squig Slayers", but I think it means "Squig Herders". |
Yes and fixed.
| mister__joshua wrote: | I like the changes, and the fact they complement each other well. I think the CFlings getting nerfs with the small buff thrown in is nice too. These are the team I've used the most (still not a lot mind, for shame!) and even though they are being reduced in power I couldn't disagree with anything said.
I'm not sure the Eshin changes go far enough to make them more playable or competitive/fun. Again, I don't have a lot of experience with them but as I sit and look at the roster I can't really see where their strengths are. They're meant to be fast but as a team are considerably slower than Skinks, the other fast team. Maybe give the Adepts Ma7 too and see how it goes? The assassin also seems overcosted/underpowered. I'd look at something like this:
Assassin - AV7, Ma8, +Shadowing, -Claw
NRs - AV7
Adepts - Ma7
I will say again that I'm not an experienced Eshin player so this is all just theory. |
The Eshin do need a little something else, but I am not sure what yet. I can tell you the Assassin does not want to have shadowing. You want to keep it as safe as possible.
| Afro wrote: | I am not that sure about Squigs being overpowered. Even with pro, they are unreliable with their lack of G skills and 1 (Squigs 2) nega traits. And AV 7 makes them weak as stunties (when it comes to saws or fouls). And the team has nothing more than a few unreliable "big guys" that decimate their own team (no G access, no weapons, no regenerate).
So please, don't change them. Maybe raise the cost of RRs. |
They will be changed, they are just too good and not quite in line with fluff. AV7 On a ST4, MB, Pro, Leap, Long Legs Hopper is not weak. AV7 is about right for a Goblin riding a mad Squig.
| Roland wrote: | wow, a 4th negatrait on squigs (yes, they also have no hands).
why not making them ag3 instead?
actually what's needed is more special rules and racial characteristics, but that's not possible now.
for example:
* Squig hoppers can fall off the squig.
* squigs with no baby sitter gains ball & chain (or some sort of random leaping) |
New skill options would be great, but we just don't have that right now. Squigs are about one of the nuttiest things you can bring onto a BB pitch, why not 4 negatraits to compliment their killing power? They really don't care who they eat.
Keep in mind these changes are two-fold:
1. To try and bring the teams into a more level playing field to maximize the races being played, and
2. to try and make the teams more fun and unique. |
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