PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 01:42 |
 
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The "Slann" discussion no matter which direction you come at it is always about the Blitzers.
Slann Blitzers are like Vampires. They are one of the two "uber" positional players on Blood Bowl.
BUT
A very big BUT
For the potential of a Slann Blitzer to really show up he needs 51+ SPP, Ideally 76+SPP.
That is HUGE.
So, you need 304 SPP spread over 4 blitzers for all of them to hit 76+ SPP at the same time.
Blitzers have 5 viable skill up paths all with NORMAL SKILL UPS, insane.
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My few attempts at Slann I went Blitzer heavy on the theory that I can skill up the catchers faster and in smaller numbers. The issue I ran across is that even if you force feed the blitzers, it is a very long slog to get them to the point of viable/effective, which IMO is 31+ SPP. Example: A human blitzer with Block, MB and PO or MB and Guard. Is a viable and effective player at 16 SPP. A slann blitzer needs 31+ SPP in comparison to a Human Blitzer to have the exact same build. Granted the Blitzer has his "stock" skills but his "stock" skills by themselves are not enough. Those "stock" skills are the big fat cherry on top of your final build at 76+ SPP. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 23, 2016 - 01:56 |
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My other thought.
Slann Lino.
There are IMO only 4 Builds for them.
#1 Wrestle/Tackle/Fend
#2 Wrestle/ Fend / Tackle
#3 Wrestle / DP / Fend
#4 DP/ Wrestle and only give him SPP on MVP at that point.
A slann Lino is perfect at 31+ SPP and you make no attempt what so ever to ever give him SPP again. Having a "mix" of the 4 types is ideal. W/F lino for LOS duty and a few W/T threats to the ball carrier. |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Apr 23, 2016 - 02:39 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | Blitzer slann plays like humans except for the few turns each game that you play them as wood elves. |
Much as I know you're a great slann coach, I don't agree with this statement at all. Sure, you can develop Slann blitzers into pomb tacklers or block guarders, but their real beauty lies in the fact that they can have Blodge sidestep diving tackle jumpup at 31 SPPs (leaving room for guard and tackle even before hitting legend). GAS access is just so lovely, and those bad starting skills are pretty good late skills, and they're quite unlike humans. But yes, the slann blitzers aren't about leap imo (except a surf specialist one, with blodgestep jugger frenzy). The linos can get wrackle strip ball (especially with AG), the catcher can get blodge sure hands (all stats welcome), and the blitzers can be reasonable hitters (jumpup is nice for the pomber) and magnificent supporters/markers.
| PainState wrote: | My other thought.
Slann Lino.
There are IMO only 4 Builds for them.
#1 Wrestle/Tackle/Fend
#2 Wrestle/ Fend / Tackle
#3 Wrestle / DP / Fend
#4 DP/ Wrestle and only give him SPP on MVP at that point.
A slann Lino is perfect at 31+ SPP and you make no attempt what so ever to ever give him SPP again. Having a "mix" of the 4 types is ideal. W/F lino for LOS duty and a few W/T threats to the ball carrier. |
I dunno, I kind of like wrestle tackle strip ball +AG.
What I like most about the linemen as sackers is that they don't need any A or S skills for it (though +AG and/or +ST help), which means you can let the blitzers and catcher(s) specialize in roles they do need A or S access for. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Apr 23, 2016 - 03:01 |
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| the_Sage wrote: | | happygrue wrote: | | Blitzer slann plays like humans except for the few turns each game that you play them as wood elves. |
Much as I know you're a great slann coach, I don't agree with this statement at all. Sure, you can develop Slann blitzers into pomb tacklers or block guarders, but their real beauty lies in the fact that they can have Blodge sidestep diving tackle jumpup at 31 SPPs (leaving room for guard and tackle even before hitting legend). GAS access is just so lovely, and those bad starting skills are pretty good late skills, and they're quite unlike humans. |
I guess maybe I should clarify: I don't play humans with MB/PO on everyone. I play them with a few hitting skills but mostly I try to build the blitzers as annoying positional players... so slann already start out with many of those skills and better access. One of the early resources that helped my game a lot was Joemanji's excellent human guide and there's a lot of stuff in there that's applicable to slann play (how to deal with being worse than the other team, exploiting what advantages you have, 3+ rolls and so on). Cross that with Garion's excellent Wood Elf Guide and the way I play slann with a blitzer focus is somewhere in between the two. Here's my human team, which does quite well with positional blitzers and some nice stats and doubles. Slann can build that kind of a team more easily and I find myself not leaping or doding with either slann or humans unless I have to... with the exception that slann can look a lot more threatening by just standing around and sometimes you can pounce.
So I guess I agree with what you're saying - I think they work better with dodge and SS than with MB/PO. approximatly 1.5 hitters is ideal (one with MB/tackle and, and another with MB/Frenzy/Jugger)
So sure, maybe humans are not really like slann... but they way I play humans and the way I play slann are quite similar so I get confused. 
EDIT: To be clear, I referenced the human guide as an example of another human blitzer build with more focus on guard/SF with things like DT/Dodge/SS on doubles.
Slann blitzers are worse to start, but if a human blitzer rolls two doubles and takes either DT or JU with one of them then suddenly they are exactly the same statline with exactly the same skills ... except that the Slann bltizer also had leap and VLL (and whichever JU or DT the human didn't take) for "free", while the human blitzer has the advantage of being better starting at 0spp. For those who haven't played around with the math, check out your favorite Human team's blitzers and translate them into slann blitzers. You may be surprised by the results.  |
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Topper
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 03:16 |
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My way s to take 2 Blitzers, skill them up, then take a single catcher, skill that one up. Works pretty well:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=664220
But Purplegoo is right, If you want blitzes - focus on them from the start - or not at all Id say!
The Blitzers and no catchers- sure helps on the "take out" issue, for sure. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Apr 23, 2016 - 04:28 |
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Ive won 2 Brawl with Slann. I love the Blitzers, but to be truthful my Catchers won those Tourneys. I have never been able to build many Blitzers past 3 skills as I play very aggressively with them. I won't cut out my Blitzers like Wreckage does, but I can handle 2 on a team. I still think they are one of the best Blitzers in the game because of the skill options they get. Ive always wanted to have 3 different types of Blitzers. All are normal skill choices.
2 with Block, dodge, guard, side step (Support)
1 B MB PO (Killer)
1 W T Stripball (Sacker) |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Apr 23, 2016 - 04:59 |
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There goes my master plan to have an original Slann team. I'm starting to think that every possible combinations of teams have been tried on Fummbl, including the most absurd ones.
I got a question. What would be the best skills choice for doubles? Usually it's Guard, but considering they're 3 ag lino, why not Dodge? That's what I took tonight, along with my first Wrestle (I believe) ever for another lino. I suppose it depends on the build - with blitzers, you need more Guards, while with catchers, you need more free menz on the field to cage and screen.
I also wonder if Kick is worth it. |
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VonManson
Joined: Apr 14, 2016
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Apr 23, 2016 - 06:33 |
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Wow I never realised what a crazy debate would open up.
I love the arguments of both sides being put forward. I am therefore going to try both. For the upcoming league I am going to start a blitzer build. While I will continue in ranked with my catcher build.
I am not seeing anyone here talk about pass at all. Would no one consider it on a doubles roll on a catcher? I would have thought with at 4 and a reroll heavy team it would be a great option for moving the ball quickly down field?
I think that timing is an issue sometimes as well, I feel that because I have leap I should go for the ball every turn as opposed to patiently waiting for the perfect time to strike. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Apr 23, 2016 - 07:22 |
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The problem with watching any of the good coaches you've been referenced so far is how much of it will you take in? There's a lot of subtle play there.
My advice is to stay clear of Slann until you become an middleweight coach here. Right now you are learning the game, and there's little point trying to learn Slann before you've learnt the game. I'd probably stay clear of Pro Elves as well.
I'd go to humans. This actually will help you learn Slann. How to pay 6338 linos with a a bone head big guy. I think in the long run it'll be better for your morale.
I'm not an experienced Slann coach. However I do play a team off site. I went the catcher route, but with the long term goal of having the blitzers. Even though the blitzers don't come with protection skills; leap, JU, DT is extremely useful....and could be worth the player's weight. Problem is that combo's going to give a lot of dead blitzers. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 23, 2016 - 08:55 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | With catcher builds, you cannot outbash most opponents and you end up playing them more like vamps - awesome abilities but you HAVE to roll and not get 1s if you want to win the game. It's a dicer strategy and one that will win you lots of games - especially against unskilled opponents or low TV folks. However, when I look at a team I'm facing I am not scared of catcher slann at all - sure if they get good dice they will beat me and there is little I can do (like vamps), but with average results it's usually possible to make them burn their RR and take risks. A good ballcarrier and a good screen can make it very hard for catcher slann to win. |
I don't want to get into the old Slann back and forth particularly, but I don't agree with this description of Catcher first Slann at all, at any TV.
Without blowing any trumpets (least of all my own), I've never had this issue where without something to reliably hit with, my game crumbles and is reduced to rolling lots of dice. A Sure Hands, Blodge ball carrier doesn't leave me to hoping for a muffed pickup as my only salvation; Slann can still play a bit, and my Plan A is never to go ball hunting immediately. Although I'll happily threaten it to contain a drive.
Heavy bashers aren't that frightening, or aren't any more frightening than at any other time. I just approach the game as a position heavy agility team, albeit one that's not getting away on 2+. Sure, there are times when Frogs die and you have to accelerate matters, but that's true with any other race as well. I'm interested you'd feel that you'd have to resort to rolling plenty of dice, since I associate you with the solid positioning and tactical nous I like to think answers the question of 'what are you going to do if the opposition doesn't go away?'
It's unfair, pulling a little chunk from a couple of characteristically well written posts. But ha! Internets. |
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VonManson
Joined: Apr 14, 2016
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| Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 10:16 |
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So slann are pretty bloody awesome to create such diverse opinions and clearly two viable ways to play. Love it |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 10:42 |
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| happygrue wrote: |
I guess maybe I should clarify: I don't play humans with MB/PO on everyone. I play them with a few hitting skills but mostly I try to build the blitzers as annoying positional players... so slann already start out with many of those skills and better access. One of the early resources that helped my game a lot was Joemanji's excellent human guide and there's a lot of stuff in there that's applicable to slann play (how to deal with being worse than the other team, exploiting what advantages you have, 3+ rolls and so on). Cross that with Garion's excellent Wood Elf Guide and the way I play slann with a blitzer focus is somewhere in between the two. Here's my human team, which does quite well with positional blitzers and some nice stats and doubles. Slann can build that kind of a team more easily and I find myself not leaping or doding with either slann or humans unless I have to... with the exception that slann can look a lot more threatening by just standing around and sometimes you can pounce.
So I guess I agree with what you're saying - I think they work better with dodge and SS than with MB/PO. approximatly 1.5 hitters is ideal (one with MB/tackle and, and another with MB/Frenzy/Jugger)
So sure, maybe humans are not really like slann... but they way I play humans and the way I play slann are quite similar so I get confused.
EDIT: To be clear, I referenced the human guide as an example of another human blitzer build with more focus on guard/SF with things like DT/Dodge/SS on doubles.
Slann blitzers are worse to start, but if a human blitzer rolls two doubles and takes either DT or JU with one of them then suddenly they are exactly the same statline with exactly the same skills ... except that the Slann bltizer also had leap and VLL (and whichever JU or DT the human didn't take) for "free", while the human blitzer has the advantage of being better starting at 0spp. For those who haven't played around with the math, check out your favorite Human team's blitzers and translate them into slann blitzers. You may be surprised by the results. |
Ah sorry, and thanks a lot for clarifying.
As this is how I play my humans, and this is (a weird-league caricature of) how I play Slann, there's a huge gap there. However, both teams do allow for a playstyle similar to the other, and if you play your humans fairly low-bash, and play your slann reasonably hitter-y, I do think the comparison is apt.
| VonManson wrote: |
I love the arguments of both sides being put forward. I am therefore going to try both. For the upcoming league I am going to start a blitzer build. While I will continue in ranked with my catcher build.
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Great idea. I did the same, making catcher-focused slann early on, and then making a second team that was blitzer-focused. At some point, stuff happened though, so now somehow the catcher-focused team has 2 catchers and 3 blitzers, and the blitzer-focused team has 2 blitzers and 3 catchers. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 13:15 |
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VanMason something to keep in mind is this:
This is only on the surface a debate about player picks. At its core it is a debate about what strategical approach to the game works best with Slann.
Different player types simply enable you to do a chosen strategy better or worse.
A good coach adapts his style of play based on the positions he has available, this is why we can debate something as simple as player picks so compassionately.
But it would be a grave mistake to think you could simply switch out one position for the other, use both teams and see what happens.
First you need a plan, then you need to have the players to make that plan happen. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 14:28 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: |
Without blowing any trumpets (least of all my own), I've never had this issue where without something to reliably hit with, my game crumbles and is reduced to rolling lots of dice. A Sure Hands, Blodge ball carrier doesn't leave me to hoping for a muffed pickup as my only salvation; Slann can still play a bit, and my Plan A is never to go ball hunting immediately. Although I'll happily threaten it to contain a drive.
Heavy bashers aren't that frightening, or aren't any more frightening than at any other time. I just approach the game as a position heavy agility team, albeit one that's not getting away on 2+. Sure, there are times when Frogs die and you have to accelerate matters, but that's true with any other race as well. I'm interested you'd feel that you'd have to resort to rolling plenty of dice, since I associate you with the solid positioning and tactical nous I like to think answers the question of 'what are you going to do if the opposition doesn't go away?'
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I also don't want to rehash a long catcher vs blitzer debate, so I'll just say that maybe I'm wrong. Surely one of the things that makes the team interesting to play is that there is room at different extremes and also a lot of mix in the middle for different styles - and since several different methods work well it's easy to circle the wagons around the style that fits our own preferred methods.
I'll nod to what Wreckage is saying: VanMason, try 10-20 games with a catcher build and with a blitzer build and see what you think! Maybe you end up somewhere in the middle or shift around. They are a challenging but fun experience. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 23, 2016 - 15:34 |
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Tried the 4 Catchers build, as others have said it's stronger at the start but over time it's weaker.
Catchers sadly lack Dodge and this slows down a lot their skill progression, if you want to have them skilled your TV will skyrocket, making your team face teams with Tacklepombers, thus making useless their Dodge, and ST 2 and AV 7 don't help.
At the moment I'm playing with 1 Kroxigor, 1 Lineman built as killer Blitzer, 1 Catcher ball carrier, the rest Linemen.
Slann Blitzers are too overpriced in my opinion, having one to fulfil the killer role is nice, but more than 1 it's probably a bloat, if they started with Block instead of Diving Tackle they would be more viable. |
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