FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: May 20, 2016 - 15:28

DrDiscoStu wrote:

#fumbblbrag

No. Truth.

Show me the tougher place to play the game and I'm off to play there right away. And when I get there we will both know you were wrong.

It is a FACT that there is no tougher environment in which to experience this game when it comes to the high level of talent and experience among this collective of coaches.

It is beyond ridiculous for anyone that has played here to assume it is bragging to assert that the BEST of the BEST plays here and that the level of tactics employed here are not at the peak of the game as it stands. YOU should know better.

Take just the advice give to him in 2 posts that have spec'd his games since you last chimed in to chastise people for #fumbblbrag -ing. Do either of those bits of advice sound like something you would have to tell someone that is not NEW to the game. Those things he was doing scream... "hello I am a noob and if you give me a few turns I will lose this game to you all on my own UNLESS I get super fantastic dice and you get terrible dice".

Oooze... The advice you have received here is good advice. But the BEST advice you received came from ME. Not because I am great or anything. Not because the advice anyone else gave you is bad advice (it is all good advice). It is the best advice because it is the only advice really pointing you towards what you really need to read... all this other advice is written there.

You need to realize that you are not really very experienced with the game. You have 30 games here and ons of Tabletop games where you got to play 4 to 6 games here and there. You probably played in tons of leagues where you got in 5 to 25 games. But there are tons of coaches here with more than 1,000 games of experience on you and they played those games against other coaches that have played 1,000s more games than you have.

You need to read the STICKY threads in the Tactics Section and gather the various wisdoms therein and start putting them into practice. Once you are doing all of those most basic things you not be so far down on the learning curve of the game and you will win more no matter what race you were playing. You are getting beat because you are lacking in far too many of the most basic tactical fundamentals of the game.

oozeboss

Joined: Mar 06, 2016

Posted: May 21, 2016 - 00:02

While I have 2/3 of sfa time for anything remotely resembling arrogance, the cold hard reality is that the more often a person does something, the better they will eventually become at doing it. My brief experience (so far) of playing Slann has been great for me because it has already successfully scraped off decades of pretension and hubris, and given me instead the very great gift of restoring my sense of context.

FUMBBL is no different to TT Blood Bowl (or even Cyanide) except in the critical fact that people here play more often than anywhere else, so naturally, basic tactical fundamentals are going to be reinforced here to a level simply unobtainable anywhere else. Which, in turn, means that an assumption that standards here will be much higher is quite logical.

While the intelligent path would be to shelve my Slann and play a more forgiving team for quite some time in order to hone the fundamentals of the game, I think that the hard row to hoe is also the one that will give me the greatest short term pain in exchange for the greatest long term gain. That, and the cold hard reality of my being a complete sucker for both frogs in general (the first figure I ever sculpted was a anthropomorphic frog); the idiosyncrasies, inherent humour, and undeniable challenges inherent to Slann (including the fact that they are the least played race in our game); and the satisfying aesthetic themes I have developed (and am further expanding) with the Kroakland Raiders means that I am not going to do the "smart" thing and play something else.

Thank you to all those who have generously given the requested feedback. I obviously won't have absorbed even a tiny amount in the time so far, but you've set me along the right path to learning a lot about both the team and the game - The True Path of the Frog.

This thread is invaluable.

_________________
Everybody loves an Underfrog!

JoeKano

Joined: Aug 30, 2003

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 14:34

oozeboss wrote:

I appreciate the honesty.

Thanks.

Leap all your team every turn. If you aint leaping you aint slanning.

_________________
"Take the Strength, crush the opposing linemen, drive them broken before you and hear the lamentation of their Cheerleaders!!!"

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 15:32

oozeboss wrote:

the more often a person does something, the better they will eventually become at doing it.

Only if that person learns from mistakes, wants to improve and remembers their past experiences.
There are coaches with thousands of game who are still terrible at the game just because they didn't evolve and keep on playing bad over and over again.

oozeboss wrote:

Slann (including the fact that they are the least played race in our game)

I don't think Slann are the least played race.
I guess Ogres are the least played race, they are even worse than Slann.

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 17:32

MattDakka wrote:

Only if that person learns from mistakes, wants to improve and remembers their past experiences.

That's not exactly how we learn to ride bicycles. Neither is it how ants solve the traveling salesman problem.

That said, there is merit in the idea that trial and error has limits. It mostly works when we have no idea what to search for. Otherwise, there are more efficient methods, e.g. diagnosis.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 17:53

I was talking about BB, not about riding bycicles or ants.
Riding a bycicle requires just body cohordination, no knowledge of strategy, skill interactions, builds, tactics.
It's a bad analogy.

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 21:29

MattDakka wrote:

Riding a bycicle requires just body cohordination, no knowledge of strategy, skill interactions, builds, tactics.

There's only one brain, and we use it for all our activities.

Tactics is mainly perceptual. You got to play and witness lots of games before you get any good. All this learning is mostly non-conscious. Just like riding a bicycle, an activity that can be also competitive and artistic.

Even strategical understanding rests on pattern recognition. While we can assume that you know that you can recognize a chainpush when you place your players to use it, we can't assume that you need to think "I should use a chainpush" as a rule to see it. In other words, here too the learning is far from being conscious.

The same applies to the decisions you make. We all learn the hard way that a loner block as one's first move is risky. However, this knowledge gets integrated in a similar manner as when one falls off a bicycle: right as you click your loner, there's a body reaction that tells you of a danger.

That you can explain how you play BB via a set of rules does not imply these are written in your brain somewhere as a list that your brain activates when you play BB.

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 22:40

Ok oozeboss I will join you on your slann quest and once again attempt to get a slann team up and running in the box.

Itza Over Lords A high risk/high reward team build that if I can survive the first 10 games relatively in tack I should be able to take off and dominate with.

_________________
Comish of the:

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 22, 2016 - 23:14

thoralf wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

Riding a bycicle requires just body cohordination, no knowledge of strategy, skill interactions, builds, tactics.

There's only one brain, and we use it for all our activities.

Tactics is mainly perceptual. You got to play and witness lots of games before you get any good. All this learning is mostly non-conscious. Just like riding a bicycle, an activity that can be also competitive and artistic.

Even strategical understanding rests on pattern recognition. While we can assume that you know that you can recognize a chainpush when you place your players to use it, we can't assume that you need to think "I should use a chainpush" as a rule to see it. In other words, here too the learning is far from being conscious.

The same applies to the decisions you make. We all learn the hard way that a loner block as one's first move is risky. However, this knowledge gets integrated in a similar manner as when one falls off a bicycle: right as you click your loner, there's a body reaction that tells you of a danger.

That you can explain how you play BB via a set of rules does not imply these are written in your brain somewhere as a list that your brain activates when you play BB.

While riding a bike doesn't require abstraction, playing a BB game requires to imagine some things before they happen.
I was quite able to ride a bike when I was 3 yo, while I would never have been able to play a BB game at 3 yo.
This because my mind was not developed enough to grasp complex concepts, rules, set ups, etc.
Also, yes, after you play BB a lot you are able to recognize some patterns automatically, without need of think about, but it's not just that, you must be able to improvise and invent weird moves sometimes.
Every human activity requires brain, of course, but riding a bike doesn't requires as much brain as playing a BB match.
Riding a bike is more a question of body cohordination than deep thinking about a turn, a roster, a build etc.

VonManson

Joined: Apr 14, 2016

Posted: May 23, 2016 - 10:38

Hello poles,

Sorry I have been away from this thread for a while but real life delivered me an elf team so I got busy losing with them on here ha ha. I have been following this thread and my slann team Queen Pond Rangers have since ha a game in which they pulled off their first victory.

I am putting it out there right away I probably should have lost this game, but my opponent went for a hand off instead of scoring with the ball carrier to give me the chance to steal the ball and score.

That said however I did have several attempts at one dice side line walking ball carrier that all resulted in skulls rather than anything useful. Anyway what I am saying there is dice rolls hate blood bowl. Never roll dice other than to pick up the ball ha ha.

I did feel, in large part to a lot of the advice here, that I played a better positional game and I put that in large part down to the fact that for this game I had a linefrog with strip ball. Just sticking him on the field changed my out look on the game. I felt less rushed, I had a tool that could get the ball loose, it wasn't a race anymore it was about the right moment.

I am sure that if people watch my game back they will see a million mistakes and I probably still forced the game a touch but I wasn't acting out of desperation.

I would also like to say that the chap I was playing against was offering me krox advice as we played which helped me a lot. The krox was great at stalling his cage with prehensile tile tying people up or forcing assits for blocks. I think I will try to through as few blocks as possible with this guy as he is all about sitting in the middle of a scrum and not letting people position, bone head is too big a risk.

Anyway thanks for all the great advice.

oozeboss

Joined: Mar 06, 2016

Posted: May 23, 2016 - 10:58

It has to be said: Queen Pond Rangers is a brilliant name for a Slann team.

And it's good to see you updating this thread, mate.

_________________
Everybody loves an Underfrog!

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 23, 2016 - 16:49

MattDakka wrote:

I was quite able to ride a bike when I was 3 yo, while I would never have been able to play a BB game at 3 yo.

I started to play Chess when I was 4, and some learn at 3 or earlier. Just like riding a bicycle, all you need is the proper supervision. This explains why we have families of musicians and mathematicians - they have social incentives and the appropriate tutoring.

Just like you don't need to know how you ride your bicycle to ride it, you can play board games without knowing much about what's going on. With some experience, you can even play OK. At around 4 you also have the advantage to learn the game "as a language," so to speak. We also have evidence that children grasp conventional structures quite early. Rational imitation starts as early as 14 months.

Heck, even chimps are quite good at some simple abstract games. (In fact, they sometimes beat humans.) Just don't ask them to explain how they do it.

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: May 23, 2016 - 18:12

VonManson wrote:

Hello poles,

Sorry I have been away from this thread for a while but real life delivered me an elf team so I got busy losing with them on here ha ha. I have been following this thread and my slann team Queen Pond Rangers have since ha a game in which they pulled off their first victory.

I am putting it out there right away I probably should have lost this game, but my opponent went for a hand off instead of scoring with the ball carrier to give me the chance to steal the ball and score.

That said however I did have several attempts at one dice side line walking ball carrier that all resulted in skulls rather than anything useful. Anyway what I am saying there is dice rolls hate blood bowl. Never roll dice other than to pick up the ball ha ha.

I did feel, in large part to a lot of the advice here, that I played a better positional game and I put that in large part down to the fact that for this game I had a linefrog with strip ball. Just sticking him on the field changed my out look on the game. I felt less rushed, I had a tool that could get the ball loose, it wasn't a race anymore it was about the right moment.

I am sure that if people watch my game back they will see a million mistakes and I probably still forced the game a touch but I wasn't acting out of desperation.

I would also like to say that the chap I was playing against was offering me krox advice as we played which helped me a lot. The krox was great at stalling his cage with prehensile tile tying people up or forcing assits for blocks. I think I will try to through as few blocks as possible with this guy as he is all about sitting in the middle of a scrum and not letting people position, bone head is too big a risk.

Anyway thanks for all the great advice.

Bonehead is not too big a risk all of the time. If the Krox is in the perfect spot (or near perfect spot) sure... then probably you should not take the risk of activating him. But at times the potential risk vs the potential reward demands you to use the Krox.

Remember that 5 out of 6 times he WILL activate. And as for Loner... this is why it is good to try to use him either Late in your turn when everything else is in place (or almost in place if the Krox was needed for a key action). He is also less risky to use when you are OUT of REROLLS... he is only slightly more risky to use than other players when there are no remaining rerolls.

Do what you can to get him making 3 Dice Blocks when he does need to act. That isn't always possible. But that 1 extra Dice really increases his effectiveness. You do want him to skill AT LEAST 1 time for Guard (Block on a Doubles). Him having Guard makes him so much better at supporting your team. (And of course Block makes him much more reliable and effective in multiple ways).

There are numerous opinions on which skills to take in which order after Guard/Block. I will let you find that advice elsewhere when you cross that road.

oozeboss

Joined: Mar 06, 2016

Posted: May 23, 2016 - 22:30

The Kroax is a glorious thing.

In my first game with one, it garnered 3 casualties (as I won the attrition war for the first time, 5 - 0) and took the MVP without ever going "d'uh?".

I have also noticed that opponents put a massive amount into decking it, so the 4 players they use to knock it down allow me to significantly outnumber their team in more critical parts of the field.

_________________
Everybody loves an Underfrog!

DrDiscoStu

Joined: Feb 20, 2006

Posted: May 24, 2016 - 01:40

oozeboss wrote:

I have also noticed that opponents put a massive amount into decking it, so the 4 players they use to knock it down allow me to significantly outnumber their team in more critical parts of the field.

Very true. As a long time Lizardman coach, the Kroxigors best attribute is his tail. He can tie up two st3 guys easily and if they want to dodge away they are at a -1, which they hate. This is why stand firm is also a great skill.

_________________
Check out my fishing and camping blog.

The Black Pearl Bounty-Board.

GUARD CONQUERS ALL!