JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Jul 14, 2019 - 14:01 |
 
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You know, thinking on this some more, I actually think smallman does have a fair point.
If the system allows one player to drive other players away and derail a whole division in a particular time zone, then to me that suggests there is a flaw with the system. At the very least we should conclude that the Blackbox system is not working in time zones where there is a small number of players.
It's really no use for the community to keep saying to him: "the problem is you, it's not the site, it's you!" Because, there are always going to be players like him, that get their kicks by spoiling others' fun. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. Also, it's clearly not going to do any good to expect him to change his behavior by appealing to his sense of decency, or because of some 'code of honor', for the benefit of the community. That isn't realistic, because he clearly doesn't give a shit about the community and he isn't going to change.
It's like if everyone in town sent out a memo saying: "ok, we're going to start leaving all our doors and windows open while we go to work. We're all going to agree not to burgle each other, alright?"
Human nature doesn't work like that.
So, I think part of the irony here is that smallman is right (but not for the reason he thinks he is). It's true that the only way to fix the situation is to change the way the Box works, because someone like him isn't going to change their behavior.
Perhaps all things that could be tried have been already, and probably Christer is too busy and this isn't so high on his list of priorities. But, if so, then we just have to accept there is nothing that can be done and Blackbox doesn't really work very well when the player pool is small.
Well ... or we just dispense with the policy of tolerance and kick smallman off the site. But, how long until smallman2 comes along? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 14, 2019 - 15:41 |
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| Christer wrote: |
Now, back before the 15 game protection was introduced, this was a viable meta strategy: Staying low to hunt new-ish teams who were yet to build strong players. Now, I believe this is a bit predatory and these games were outright not fun and in my opinion not in the spirit of the game.
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True, but please consider that even monoactivating a super high TV and facing way lower TV teams could be predatory as well. Not all the underdog teams are minmaxed.
| Christer wrote: |
That's tough, but is sort of the whole point of the Blackbox division in my mind. Blackbox is about coming up with a team build that can be sustained over time, even in the rough environment that it is. |
Nice to know it, but there are some very good coaches that, instead of "coming up with a team build that can be sustained over time" just create a strong tier 1 team, play it for 15 games or so, retire it, rinse and repeat. It could be considered a mild exploit of the scheduling system, because new teams benefit from rookie protection and don't have the same FF bloat as the older teams.
One thing is if you are a genuine new coach moving his first steps in the Black Box division, another thing is if you are an old and expert coach cycling his Norse, Undead, Amazon, Dwarf, Wood Elf team over and over again.
If Box is about having a balanced team build to deal over time with the unexpected TV gap matches, then you should consider that cycling teams avoids to have a balanced team build for long time because cycled teams are in rookie protection and will not be played for long time.
Last, and partly linked to the cycling team approach, not all coaches like to play at high TV, that doesn't mean they are nasty minmaxers.
Maybe they are just NAF tournament coaches, more interested in low TV zone, or they are coaches as me who don't like high TV zone because not all teams are created equal and because high TV zone is more unbalanced than low-mid and poorer in terms of racial variety.
Being forced to have and play some high TV teams to act as "bodyguards" for TV gaps is not very fun, because you have to play at high TV even if you don't want it. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 16:15 |
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The game certainly isn't balanced at low to mid tv, particularly among rookie teams. As you mentioned, some coaches specifically cycle rookie teams, and this is largely because they aren't balanced.
The box forces coaches who like high tv to play low tv matches. I think it's perfectly reasonable that it force coaches who like low tv to play high tv.
I'd actually like to see rookie team protection taken out, replaced with rookie coach protection. Make the tv difference entirely based on how many games you as a coach have won with a given race.
So if you have 4 lizardman teams (in any division), including 2 retired ones, and the two retired teams have 10 wins among them, then, and the two active teams have 1 and 3 wins, then any lizardman team you activate in the box would be matched as if it were 14 games old in the current formula.
Id be ok with adding a clause that of its your first ever team (including retired teams) for that race in the box division, then it would use team age instead, to give you some time to grow.
That would completely stop anyone from cycling teams, and would force all coaches to risk playing at both high and low tv, instead of slowing some coaches to always play low tv. |
Last edited by Nelphine on %b %14, %2019 - %16:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Jul 14, 2019 - 16:16 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | You know, thinking on this some more, I actually think smallman does have a fair point.
If the system allows one player to drive other players away and derail a whole division in a particular time zone, then to me that suggests there is a flaw with the system. At the very least we should conclude that the Blackbox system is not working in time zones where there is a small number of players.
It's really no use for the community to keep saying to him: "the problem is you, it's not the site, it's you!" Because, there are always going to be players like him, that get their kicks by spoiling others' fun. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. Also, it's clearly not going to do any good to expect him to change his behavior by appealing to his sense of decency, or because of some 'code of honor', for the benefit of the community. That isn't realistic, because he clearly doesn't give a shit about the community and he isn't going to change.
It's like if everyone in town sent out a memo saying: "ok, we're going to start leaving all our doors and windows open while we go to work. We're all going to agree not to burgle each other, alright?"
Human nature doesn't work like that.
So, I think part of the irony here is that smallman is right (but not for the reason he thinks he is). It's true that the only way to fix the situation is to change the way the Box works, because someone like him isn't going to change their behavior.
Perhaps all things that could be tried have been already, and probably Christer is too busy and this isn't so high on his list of priorities. But, if so, then we just have to accept there is nothing that can be done and Blackbox doesn't really work very well when the player pool is small.
Well ... or we just dispense with the policy of tolerance and kick smallman off the site. But, how long until smallman2 comes along? |
We've known the box doesn't work very well during NA hours for years. It's nothing new. Indeed if you go read threads from 2014/2015 you'll find people saying it wasn't even good in 2009/2010 during NA hours... the problem is the player base simply isn't there during the NA hours, and actually remains stagnant because even though there ARE now different coaches activating in it, the numbers remain the same because plenty of the NA coaches who post in these very threads over the years simply don't play in it themselves. Or did previously and now don't.
When it wasn't smallman there were other coaches blamed for the lack of activations during NA hours - high tv killer nurgle/chaos. I shouldn't need to name names, and I won't as the site rules prevent me from doing so.
The fact of the matter is, the NA box player pool is low, it's been low for years, most of the coaches during these hours play R/L, and despite everybody knowing that increased population/activation would increase the quality of games/matchmaking for everyone, the coaches who are online during this time continually come up with reasons not to activate. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 14, 2019 - 16:23 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | The game certainly isn't balanced at low to mid tv, particularly among rookie teams. As you mentioned, some coaches specifically cycle rookie teams, and this is largely because they aren't balanced.
The box forces coaches who like high tv to play low tv matches. I think it's perfectly reasonable that it force coaches who like low tv to play high tv.
I'd actually like to see rookie team protection taken out, replaced with rookie coach protection. Make the tv difference entirely based on how many games you as a coach have won with a given race.
So if you have 4 lizardman teams (in any division), including 2 retired ones, and the two retired teams have 10 wins among them, then, and the two active teams have 1 and 3 wins, then any lizardman team you activate in the box would be matched as if it were 14 games old in the current formula.
Id be done with adding a clause that of its your first ever team (including retired teams) for that race in the box division, then it would use team age instead, to give you some time to grow.
That would completely stop anyone from cycling teams, and would force all coaches to risk playing at both high and low tv, instead of slowing some coaches to always play low tv. |
What? Seriously, what?
Just go ahead and think about what you've just posted. Really think about it. A coach might have 100+ games in R with a race having previously tried it in box long ago, he decided he'd like to make a new box team to experience a different meta and perhaps avoid the gamefinder dance (perhaps he likes dwarves).
Game one he activates his newly made dwarfs in a 4-man draw, in which two new coaches to the site have their 1 game old teams, and a box veteran has monoactivated his 2.5m tv nurgle.
Under your system, some poor git who decided to dip his finger in box once more is now playing a 2.4m TV difference match with a rookie team.
What on earth is enjoyable about that? |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 16:28 |
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That's why I have the clause that if is your first team if that race in the box it would be considered on its own. Could even modify that to any teams as long as the coach has less than 15 games with that race in the box. So if you start 3 teams in the box, and play 1 game each, they would still be matched as a new team - but if you start 15 teams in the box, then it looks at total wins.
But if you've already done that, and you've got 100+ games with wins with that race, why does it need to be procured, GIVEN racial suitability still exists and therefore that match would only generally get chosen if required to actually get matches at all, which is what the NA time zone needs. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Jul 14, 2019 - 16:34 |
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I covered that already. I'll be honest, I think your idea is so bad it's almost trolling. If you think someone genuinely should be playing massive tv difference games because they had the gall to use a race before for over X games before retiring it, I really don't know what to tell you.
People retire teams all the time for various reasons and your "fix" would affect every single participant in the blackbox trophy. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:02 |
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Sure, but what is more problematic - affecting people who choose to make 15+ new teams of the same race (vs the idea that people could be playing a blood bowl team in the long haul, which many other people believe is a reason for the box)
Or
People recycling teams in order to play overpowered low tv matches?
The first (which arguably goes against a reason to play a long term competitive division for blood bowl) is annoying, and will occasionally cause problems - but giving everyone 15 games per race to find a team they like actually seems like it should be sufficient.
The second is absolutely a problem.
Now, on to the idea that people play a 'season' in the box, with a new team. This whole concept seems to be based around playing whatever match the box gives you. If there are enough people doing this that it's a genuine concern, then they should also be available to play each other. And conversely there are people who do the same style of gameplay, but use existing teams - that have been smashed down to equivalent of a rookie team, and yet don't benefit from that protection. Why shouldn't they benefit? Why does the coach playing his 15th season and 15th team need protection, but the coach trying to recover from 950tv gets no protection? That feels like the first coach wants to claim he's surviving the box, but trying to avoid actually having to survive the box. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:07 |
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https://fumbbl.com/p/boxtrophy
Perhaps you should read this. Then understand exactly why people might have multiple races re-made after X games.
Incidentally, you aren't addressing anything here except forcing your own vision of how the box "should" be played upon others, and doing so in a manner that would likely achieve nothing but reduced traffic in box. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:30 |
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No, I'm specifically trying to address recycling teams, in order to get easier games at low tv.
As to the blackbox trophy - nowhere in there does it discuss your opponents. And specifically, the general meta of the box is to 'play what the box gives you're which is the entire reason for the trophy.
So the only thing my suggestion does is take a number of people who are currently claiming that they play whatever the box throws at them - and equally makes all of them have to deal with more of what the box throws at them. It does absolutely nothing to change that trophy, except perhaps make it an even bigger achievement. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:36 |
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This is only a "problem" because you think it's one. Therefore you are enforcing your own ideals on others.
Again, plenty of people make new teams after 15 games, with various tiers, for reasons other than you believe. In addition, if it were really as widespread a problem as you suggest, there would be absolutely no need to police it because, logically, these recycling coaches would be mostly playing against each other. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:42 |
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The only way to 'multiply the base' from the box point of view, and without recruiting new players is promoting of new team creation. I think that should be encouraged, not refrained, as it allows matches, and draws to happen that otherwise would not happen. If it is a different issue if those teams are always abandoned, rather than letting them grow. Anyway, i could not help to feed....erm...the misguided attempt of 'fixing' people and bbox.
P.S. asterix stands for tongue in cheek choice of words |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:50 |
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Hehe, well, we all have our own opinions about the box, and about what is 'gpod' play.
I like long lived teams, and like playing against those. I don't want to enforce that on anyone.
What this suggestion was about is specifically what MattDakka posted about - good coaches recycling tier 1 teams.
Whether it's actually a problem that needs to be fixed, is for wiser heads than mine to decide. But for all coaches who start up a tier 2 or 3 team in box, and then get pasted by tier 1 teams from a coach who's played that same race many times as a rookie, I do think it would be an improvement. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 14, 2019 - 17:54 |
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The other 'problem' my change addresses (again whether it's a real problem is beyond me), is that coaches who recycle teams for any reason, including the blackbox trophy, effectively take themselves out of the pool of possible opponents for the high tv old teams. This means that the remaining coaches (which more often than not includes most new coaches) end up as the only available opponents for the high tv teams. When it is a new coach, this makes it more likely if they lost that they quit.
Offering more opponents for high tv teams (even if I activate with 6 or 7 1600+ tv teams, they're still all high enough to be missed by brand new teams) reduces the number of times a new coach meets them and quits because of it. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 14, 2019 - 18:05 |
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