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Poll
Best Post Apocalyptic flop?
Waterworld
34%
 34%  [ 64 ]
Salute of the Jugger (called The Blood of heroes in some regions)
16%
 16%  [ 30 ]
The Postman
13%
 13%  [ 25 ]
Dredd (not the sly stallone one)
24%
 24%  [ 46 ]
Deathrace 2000
6%
 6%  [ 12 ]
Deathsport
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Cyborg
3%
 3%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 186


Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Not sure if it's been mentioned.... The MVP rule is reverting back to random isn't it?

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 21:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Wozzaa wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned.... The MVP rule is reverting back to random isn't it?


Yes... I would think it is becasue we now buy skills and it overall take allot less SPP to skill up players. MVP also only give 4 SPP.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 21:55 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
WhatBall wrote:

But, but that right there is EXACTLY what is awesome about BB. That on the last turn a nobody zombie can get lucky and haphazardly send up a prayer that is answered by nuffle. That is what BB is to me.


Sorry Mate. Our time is done.


Sure, the problem here is that the zombie, in the rain, in a tackle zone, has exactly the same chance of success as an elf.

Its not just that the last minute craziness thats bad, it's that there is no way to differentiate that last minute craziness, when it seems obvious there should be SOME difference; unless you get complicated stuff like MattDakka was suggesting, which I do think is too complicated.

Therefore, if you want to differentiate it, well, you need to simply ban the zombie at SOME point (long bombs? long passes? short passes?). But if you ban it at all, again, that's too complicated, soo.. you need to ban it for all passing.


This also gives a place for skeletons on an undead team, which are underrepresented - now they have something else that zombies don't. I'll still take the zombie mind you, but for people who want that extra, well, skeletons have a little bit more of a place.

Is it a good change? Eh, I doubt it. Will it honestly even affect people who like that last moment craziness? I doubt it. I doubt any two players combined have tried it as often as 5 times (using a pass to directly change the outcome of the game, on a player that in the new rules will not be able to pass, when there wasn't an alternative). (And now that I've stated that, someone will probably prove me wrong.)
Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 22:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
koadah wrote:
WhatBall wrote:

But, but that right there is EXACTLY what is awesome about BB. That on the last turn a nobody zombie can get lucky and haphazardly send up a prayer that is answered by nuffle. That is what BB is to me.


Sorry Mate. Our time is done.


Sure, the problem here is that the zombie, in the rain, in a tackle zone, has exactly the same chance of success as an elf.


Same for dodging.

Maybe they should not able to dodde too. ^^

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 22:27 Reply with quote Back to top

What I suggested was used in WHFB, which was a GW game and not super complex (many rules but easy to grasp). I think that Zombies should be able to pass, just, they should not be able to do it with a 6.
To do that with a D6 you need to use the 7+ rule, or use a D8, where an automatic success would be 1/8 instead of 1/6. So, the Zombies/Skeletons/Big Guys could still make that last turn crazy pass, but with less chances than now.
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 22:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Doofr wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
koadah wrote:
WhatBall wrote:

But, but that right there is EXACTLY what is awesome about BB. That on the last turn a nobody zombie can get lucky and haphazardly send up a prayer that is answered by nuffle. That is what BB is to me.


Sorry Mate. Our time is done.


Sure, the problem here is that the zombie, in the rain, in a tackle zone, has exactly the same chance of success as an elf.


Same for dodging.

Maybe they should not able to dodde too. ^^

This.

Maybe my return to BB was a mistake. Need to step away again and see.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2020 - 22:34 Reply with quote Back to top

No.. an elf would dodge on a 3+ there. the zombie would dodge on a 5+. That's not the same.

Edit: 'But a zombie dodges into 4 tackle zones the same as an elf!! that's the same right??!'
No. That's WAY more commitment by your opponent, as opposed to a random common scenario (one type of weather, one opponent player on) in the match. Your opponent has to go crazy for you to consider that. The scenario simply can't come up very often, even compared to a longbomb in the rain with 1 tackle zone; because in that scenario where your opponent actually commits that many players, they've probably done so in a way that you need multiple dodges, and that means, most of those secondary dodges will be into less tackle zones. Therefore, the ACTION has way higher chance of success for the elf than the zombie. Therefore, you DO still have that difference.

A long bomb pass from one tackle zone is too generic, and too out of control for your opponent, and doesn't allow for that granularity.
Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
No.. an elf would dodge on a 3+ there. the zombie would dodge on a 5+. That's not the same.

Edit: 'But a zombie dodges into 4 tackle zones the same as an elf!! that's the same right??!'
No. That's WAY more commitment by your opponent, as opposed to a random common scenario (one type of weather, one opponent player on) in the match. Your opponent has to go crazy for you to consider that. The scenario simply can't come up very often, even compared to a longbomb in the rain with 1 tackle zone; because in that scenario where your opponent actually commits that many players, they've probably done so in a way that you need multiple dodges, and that means, most of those secondary dodges will be into less tackle zones. Therefore, the ACTION has way higher chance of success for the elf than the zombie. Therefore, you DO still have that difference.

A long bomb pass from one tackle zone is too generic, and too out of control for your opponent, and doesn't allow for that granularity.


You forget Saurus , and all the other ag1.

Or we can talk about catch too ? Or interceptions ?

The siprit of the game was always that a 15+ with be equal to a 6+ , that a 6 will be always a success and 1 a failure.

I dont realy understand why taking the exempl of the longbomb by a zombie for reference to justify the fact that is right in a way ,that a bunch of low ag players cant pass at all anymore.

Cant even punt or kick in the ball or i dunno....They just can hold it , give to someone or let it on the ground..

In the same spirit why not forbiden some kind of player to dodge ,to catch or intercept a ball ? I dont see realy a difference.

Nelphine wrote:
A long bomb pass from one tackle zone is too generic, and too out of control for your opponent, and doesn't allow for that granularity.


I dont recall seeing that kind of action at least in my last 100 games.Surely lot more. And probably never with a zombie.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 01:11 Reply with quote Back to top

right that's my second (and more important) point - you never see it. its simply not going to come up. so people who love the idea of that randomness.. well it still never occurs, even if you (as you pointed out) like the idea that 15+ = 6+. Personally I wouldn't have bothered with the rule change, but I can see somewhere that someone complained about the granularity (which is, as you pointed out, completely silly to complain about), but even more importantly.. it never happens anyway, even by people who love the idea that it COULD happen.

Go find someone with 1000+ matches, and find two occurrences where anyone ever tried a pass with a player who won't have it in the new edition, where it ended up changing the outcome of the game.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 01:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm very unhappy with the new passing rules, even though I like the spirit. Passing in the new rules with anything but a 2+ passer looks ... intimidating. Like, a quick pass with most players is now a desperation play. I see why they did what they did, but the way Wildly Inaccurate works is a severe impairment to anything but the most hard-nosed cage game.

I predict a fair sight more 0-0 grind-outs.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 01:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Go find someone with 1000+ matches, and find two occurrences where anyone ever tried a pass with a player who won't have it in the new edition, where it ended up changing the outcome of the game.
What, you've never heard of an all-Zombie team? There are a few old (as in, lots of games) ones out there.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice. Focus instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 02:54 Reply with quote Back to top

*shrug* show me a few matches where passing is how the game outcome changed. like i said, i'm sure i'll be proven wrong.
Felix17



Joined: May 23, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 07:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
*shrug* show me a few matches where passing is how the game outcome changed. like i said, i'm sure i'll be proven wrong.


I think I'll be reluctant to pass with an Elf Blitzer/Catcher/Linelf or a Gutter Runner, most of whom I think are now 4+ or worse to pass. I think this is one of the greatest impacts of the new passing rules, that agile players who were able to leap on a spilled ball and pass it clear are now doing so at much greater risk.

I might have read your position wrong, but I think passing has really changed, and for the worse. They've tried to buff Throwers by making everyone else a lot worse.
spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 10:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder if another reason for changing the passing rules is to make spp farming harder?

Elves can't do a bunch of quick passes as easily with any player 1 or 2 spp's from a skill. Some players with the old AG2 can't pass at all, often their best option for skilling was either 2 TD's or an MVP and a lucky cas or making a pass attempt when it was safe to do so.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2020 - 12:40 Reply with quote Back to top

If they wanted not to earn SPPs from passing they could have just removed the SPP gain for the completion (or assigned the SPP just for long and long bomb passes).
I have the feeling they wanted to change the passing and make it a more specialist action for Throwers but they messed it.
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