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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2021 - 20:28 Reply with quote Back to top

So I have been hearing chatter on the forum about a claw nerf but after reading the rule for claw and mighty blow I don't see it.

Consider the following.

Claw- AV reduced to 8+ before applying modifiers.

Mighty Blow - May be used to modify Armor or Injury roll. Modifier applied after the roll is made.

My reading is that Claw brings it down to 8+ then if necessary you can use Mighty Blow to bring it down to 7+. How is this any different than the current rules used on Fumbbl?

Just looking for some clarification. I could have missed something outside of the skill description.

To me the nerf is that you will see the combination less often since games will be played at a much lower TV.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2021 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Because the old rule was "8+ after applying modifiers", the new rule is "8+ before" which means you need to actually roll the 8.

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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2021 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

It's different. "A roll of 8+ before applying any modifiers will break their armour". So MB will only affect the injury roll on a Claw + MB knock down.

Big impact on stuns, I think it's about a third worse than it used to be for KO and injury

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Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2021 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I posted my maths here:
https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=Muff2n&id=23399
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 02:37 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
It's different. "A roll of 8+ before applying any modifiers will break their armour". So MB will only affect the injury roll on a Claw + MB knock down.

Big impact on stuns, I think it's about a third worse than it used to be for KO and injury


I am sorry but the way I understand this in plain English is that if I roll a POW and only have claw the armor is reduced to 8+. I need to roll an 8 in order to break armor. This has nothing to do with Mighty Blow. The armor is reduced to 8. Thus if I rolled a 7 armor is not broken.

Now we move to the Mighty Blow rule. It says that AFTER the armor roll is made you may modify the armor roll. Hence if the roll was a 7 and the player has both claw and mighty blow the armor is broken.

In the example of cited a roll of 7 does not break armour with claw alone but it does with Mighty Blow because Mighty Blow is applied AFTER the roll is made. As the book says, AV has been reduced first to 8+ allowing Mighty Blow to have a later impact.

As you say. You reduce it to 8+ BEFORE ADDING MODIFIERS. Modifiers can reduce it further after it is reduced to 8+.

Now if the old rule said that Mighty Blow could be used on both the armor and injury roll for a player that has been knocked down it is indeed a nerf as the new rules state it is used on only one or the other.


Last edited by Kondor on Jan 15, 2021 - 02:55; edited 1 time in total
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 02:53 Reply with quote Back to top

A roll of 8+ before applying modifiers.

So in your example:
In crp/2016, you blitz av9 and claws reduce to av7, you need an 8 to break, you roll 7. You add +1 from MB and get your 8 *after applying modifiers*, you have broken armor.

In 2020, you need an 8 to break, you roll 7. Claws rule states you break armour if you roll an "8+ before applying modifiers". Even if you were to add your +1 from mb, that would be an 8 achieved *after* applying modifiers, thus you would not be breaking armor.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 03:00 Reply with quote Back to top

AD, I guess that I must be thick headed tonight.

BB2016 a knock down from claw reduces the AV to 7 thus needing a roll of 8 or better to break armor. Next you add Mighty Blow meaning that a roll of 7 is enough to break armor.

BB2020. Claw reduces armour to an 8+. Again this means that you must roll an 8 or better to break armor. Mighty Blow rule states that it is added after the roll is made thus reducing AV once more and you break armour on a 7.

Hence. No change.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 03:05 Reply with quote Back to top

no. in bb2016, claw changed the armor.

in bb2020, it does NOT change the armor. instead, it says, regardless of your armor, if you roll an 8+ BEFORE any modifiers, you break armor. If that doesn't break your armor, then you actually compare your roll to your armor as normal (and you might get to use modifiers, if for example you have mighty blow.)
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 03:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Your 8 there is achieved AFTER you "apply modifiers", not BEFORE.

7+1 is 8, but it's not "8 before modifiers". The rule is written so that you must roll the hard 8+ when you use claw.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 04:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok. Lets try this a different way.

Direct quote from Claw. (which I think we all agree on so far.) "A roll of 8+ before applying any modifier will break armour regardless of the actual armor value." All this is saying is that even if you have AV 0f 12+, with claw the AV will be an 8+. It further means that you do not use Mighty Blow before claw reducing AV to a theoretical 11+ and then bring it down further to 8+. Claw simply comes first. In fact, I would argue that a plain reading of this is that claw comes first and THEN you add modifiers if there are modifiers to be added.

Now on to Mighty Blow. "You may modify either the armour roll or the injury roll by the amount shown in brackets."

So the plain English reading is that a roll of 7 would not break a simple claw block on an AV9+ player, but Mighty Blow allows you to modify the dice roll by one turning it into an 8. 8+ breaks armour.

Claw lowers the armour value while Mighty Blow allows you to change the value of the dice rolled. Both work together. On a 7 claw did not break armour but I modified the roll with mighty blow so the dice value rolled is actually an 8.


Last edited by Kondor on Jan 15, 2021 - 04:40; edited 1 time in total
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 04:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Not sure how the site will treat this but on table top I will argue this one all day long. A straight forward reading of the rule is very clear to me. I think you need to do some mental gymnastics to twist it to mean anything different.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 04:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I give up.

Plain English reading is that mighty blow cannot be used in conjunction with claw.

Mighty blow is a modifier.

You must roll 8+ *before adding modifiers*. If you rolled 8+ (using claw), you do not need to add mighty blow to the AV roll. If you rolled below 8, you have not rolled 8+ before adding modifiers.

The reason it states "before applying any modifier" is so you cannot do precisely what you are describing.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 04:41 Reply with quote Back to top

No. The reason it says before adding modifiers is because you add modifiers after claw. It does not say other modifiers do not apply.

Claw moves it down to 8+ first and then, in this case MB modifies the dice roll.

If they wanted it to be as you argue, it should say "a roll of an 8+ with no further modification allowed." Alternatively, Mighty Blow should specifically say that it may not be used in conjunction with claw.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 05:14 Reply with quote Back to top

BB16 says an 8+ after modifiers. BB2020 says an 8+ before modifiers

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 05:20 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
BB16 says an 8+ after modifiers. BB2020 says an 8+ before modifiers


Then my plain reading of BB16 would be to make your modifications first. If that does not bring it down to an 8+ roll reduce it further to an 8+.

Alternatively you can look at MB and Claw completely separately. Resolve the two rules in whichever order you like.

Claw reduces the AV to 8+.

MB changes the value of whatever dice you roll.

Honestly, I have no real dog in the fight. On FUMBBL a limit to 1350 TV on the main division means that you would not see many claws paired with mighty blow. It just eats too much TV and will take too many seasons to build with random MVPs.

However, if this is the interpretation of the rule on the site, it will provide further incentive to use Orcs and Dwarfs. Teams that come with plenty of block and can get a few quick Mighty Blow or guard without any worry of facing can openers.


Last edited by Kondor on Jan 15, 2021 - 05:28; edited 2 times in total
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