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Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2021 - 20:47 Reply with quote Back to top

For vampires, I rhink you will want skills over more vampires. And you probably only want 4 anyway. Plus with some more skills, they are slightly more reliable and you might get away with fewer rerolls.

I would go 4 vampires, 7 thralls 4 rerolls,apothecary, 220 to spend on skills and rehires. Since stacked vampires are so good I'd imagine you want to keep them 2 or even 3 seasons. You might be able to cut a reroll too depending on what skills they have. Thralls are cheap and while you will quickly want a big bench, i think a few stacked vamps will be more important longer term, and they are pretty cheap to buy.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2021 - 03:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Frowny wrote:
For vampires, I rhink you will want skills over more vampires. And you probably only want 4 anyway. Plus with some more skills, they are slightly more reliable and you might get away with fewer rerolls.

I would go 4 vampires, 7 thralls 4 rerolls,apothecary, 220 to spend on skills and rehires. Since stacked vampires are so good I'd imagine you want to keep them 2 or even 3 seasons. You might be able to cut a reroll too depending on what skills they have. Thralls are cheap and while you will quickly want a big bench, i think a few stacked vamps will be more important longer term, and they are pretty cheap to buy.


Traditionally, that is true, but now that you don't leave the pitch due to blood Lust, I think it will be better to carry more vamps. Also with the improvement of Pro, vamps get better quickly.

I think a 6 vamp roster is going to be fun and better than people think.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2021 - 13:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:


Chaos Chosen 1 Ogre, 4 Warriors, 7 Beastmen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1190k with 160k to spend. This one is tricky. The team is starved for core skills. If you have enough players with core skills, you may want to drop the ogre to keep them. Still, over 15 games, I don't know that you will skill enough players that you want to drop the big fella. Down grading to a troll may be the best choice.


I think for Chaos, they can afford to drop a reroll, allowing them to go down to 220k extra to spend. Furthermore, replacing the ogre with the troll will give them 245k to spend which is fairly solid. That way they still have a bench, full positionals and functionally everything they need. While two re-rolls seems a bit thin, ideally by second season you have enough block and other skills to compensate.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 05:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Does the 20k agent fee count towards the 1350k budget cap? It doesn't count for TV so I'm hoping it doesn't toll the 1350k limit.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 10:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
Does the 20k agent fee count towards the 1350k budget cap? It doesn't count for TV so I'm hoping it doesn't toll the 1350k limit.


No, it counts against the budget for rebuy, but your TV is actual player costs plus skills plus extras like RR's and Coaches.

So if you're rebuying players to the full budget of 1350k, your TV will be 20k less per player you re-hire.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 15:21 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
Mingoose wrote:
Does the 20k agent fee count towards the 1350k budget cap? It doesn't count for TV so I'm hoping it doesn't toll the 1350k limit.


No, it counts against the budget for rebuy, but your TV is actual player costs plus skills plus extras like RR's and Coaches.

So if you're rebuying players to the full budget of 1350k, your TV will be 20k less per player you re-hire.


Wait, so do you mean “YES, it counts against the budget”? My question is if you can use your excess treasury to pay agent fees outside of the 1350k. Am I reading your reply to say that the agent fees are a part of the 1350k limit? So if you pay 1 agent fee, you only have 1330k remaining regardless of your ending treasury?

This could make the entire thing viable to me if agent fees were not a part of the 1350k cap. Otherwise see you later blood bowl. Or hello league with BB2016 Smile
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 15:27 Reply with quote Back to top

@Mingoose : well.....you can say goodbye to BB 2020.
Agent fees are part of your 1350k re-draft budget.
(but those multiple 20k fees won't appear in your new TV)
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Azur wrote:
@Mingoose : well.....you can say goodbye to BB 2020.
Agent fees are part of your 1350k re-draft budget.
(but those multiple 20k fees won't appear in your new TV)


Goodbye BB2020!

Seriously, it was like GW set out to not only make BB worse, but make it slightly worse across the board in every possible aspect of the game. Oh you like the game mechanics? Well let me garbage up passing. Oh you like interesting skill combos? Let me provide a bunch of terrible skills so everyone picks only the select few useable ones. Oh you like player development? Let me prevent you from carrying over players by penalizing you arbitrarily. The redraft was the one silver lining in the new rules and this one aspect completely destroys it for me.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 16:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm a not fan of BB2020 ruleset either but you should look at the bright side of it:

- Kick-Off events nerf;
- Clawmb nerf;
- 1TTD nerf (max MA is 9);
- Leap nerf;
- Passing nerf (PA stat makes passing worse for slow bash teams, which with the current ruleset benefit greatly from having an AG 4 player able to carry the ball and pass it easily (relatively speaking); that means that, in theory, you don't need to stall for 8 turns vs teams without a dedicated thrower, 7 turns could suffice (especially if you have a Kicker);
- some skills are not so bad (Pro has been improved, Brawler is nice for Big Guy/ST 5 players without G access).
- some rosters have been improved (Khemri, Humans, Necro, Orcs come to mind);
- new rosters add some variety to the game;
- multiple rr per turn: I remember more than 1 game lost due to rolling a double skull on opening block and then failing another easy roll later on the same turn;
- Fan Factor (Dedicated Fans in BB2020) not counting anymore in the TV.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 16:24 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

- Kick-Off events nerf;
- Clawmb nerf;
- 1TTD nerf (max MA is 9);
- Leap nerf;
- Passing nerf (PA stat makes passing worse for slow bash teams, which with the current ruleset benefit greatly from having an AG 4 player able to carry the ball and pass it easily (relatively speaking); that means that, in theory, you don't need to stall for 8 turns vs teams without a dedicated thrower, 7 turns could suffice (especially if you have a Kicker);
- some skills are not so bad (Pro has been improved, Brawler is nice for Big Guy/ST 5 players without G access).
- some rosters have been improved (Khemri, Humans, Necro, Orcs come to mind);
- new rosters have been added and that adds some variety to the game;
- multiple rr per turn: I remember more than 1 game lost due to rolling a double skull on opening block and then failing another easy roll later on the same turn;
- Fan Factor (Dedicated Fans in BB2020) not counting anymore in the TV.


The ones I agree with are kick of table, 1TTD, and clawmb. I personally don't mind random blitzes and whatnot, but I appreciate coaches not wanting that level of random crap. The clawmb nerf is significant and needed. Watching a 9-8 wood elf vs skaven 1TTD fest is awful.

As for the rest I don't agree with your logic. Leap was needed to bust cages. Passing nerf a good thing? Get out of here with that. Your point about bash teams now being unable to score in two turns means they will just dedicate their two turns to bashing you to bits. I would rather they try for a cool play than ignore the ball and crush me. FF in TV was an excellent way to handicap better coaches. Multiple RR will reward sloppy play; I'm not against it but it is not good or bad imo.

The biggest thing for me is that a long term perpetual online environment is now pointless. Perpetual online teams need player development. I almost suspect GW nerfed player development to sell more figures, thinking that the online community would abandon BB2020 in short order and MAYBE convert to TT, where playing 100 games with a team is far less likely so the rules don't sting as much.

Again I don't think GW made the new version significantly worse, but it is definitely slightly worse, and in a great many ways.
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 16:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm sad to agree with both Mingoose AND MattDakka.

Half of the new ruleset is really interesting (Matt's list about the bright side is almost complete), while the other half seems to be nothing but a game killer (I 200% understand Mingoose's criticism).

BB2020 is..... a weird mutant.
But let's give it a try before burying that infamous child Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 17:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:

As for the rest I don't agree with your logic. Leap was needed to bust cages. Passing nerf a good thing? Get out of here with that. Your point about bash teams now being unable to score in two turns means they will just dedicate their two turns to bashing you to bits.


The game is first and foremost about scoring TDs, not bashing.
If they bash you, amen, they already do it now AND they score too. So you suffer hits but they equalize too, which is the really bad thing. Also, if you have to stall for 7 turns, you suffer fewer hits (1 extra turn of stalling means more hits). Moreover, since teams will be less developed, there will be fewer killers around (it's harder to develop killers in 15 games without MVP nomination and harder vanity passes to farm SPPs due to Wildly Inaccurate).

About Leap: you don't need to bust cages. I often don't even bother to defend or sack, because there are too many Strength skills on the opponent team. The best course of action is letting them score and equalizing with 1TTD. Even with MA capped at 9 it's viable.

Mingoose wrote:

FF in TV was an excellent way to handicap better coaches. Multiple RR will reward sloppy play; I'm not against it but it is not good or bad imo.

Not at all. Some games you have the highest FF and still win the events, some games you have the lowest FF and lose the events. It's really too random to be considered a good handicap system. As it is, what it really achieves is penalizing the CR gain of good coaches.

Multiple rrs don't reward sloppy plays, they just improve the distribution during a crucial turn, especially if you play agile teams relying on 1d actions.
You can play flawlessly a drive and fail the score due to bad dice. Good coaches will be able to save their rrs for the final rush. People will not play with 8 rrs anyway, the number of rrs will still be 3 I guess, so if you start rerolling dice due to sloppy gameplay you will run out of rrs soon.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

As it is, what it really achieves is penalizing the CR gain of good coaches.


That's the point, that was a good system. It gave a boost to lower CR coaches, but a very minor one in the form of slightly more inducements.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

If they bash you, amen, they already do it now AND they score too.
I'm sorry you're not a good enough coach to stop a bash team from 2 turn scoring on you.

MattDakka wrote:
About Leap: you don't need to bust cages. I often don't even bother to defend or sack, because there are too many Strength skills on the opponent team. The best course of action is letting them score and equalizing with 1TTD. Even with MA capped at 9 it's viable.
Great, so in your ideal game stack there is no defense. Brilliant. Sounds fun. And no, you don't *need* it to bust cages, it is just a good balancing feature to not require wood elves to pile their AV7 team into TZ's trying to dismantle a cage.

MattDakka wrote:
Not at all. Some games you have the highest FF and still win the events, some games you have the lowest FF and lose the events. It's really too random to be considered a good handicap system. As it is, what it really achieves is penalizing the CR gain of good coaches.


Penalizing good coaches is exactly what handicapping means. Obviously you don't like handicapping, which is fine, but I actually liked how FF would "penalize" good coaches with a higher TV.

MattDakka wrote:
Multiple rrs don't reward sloppy plays, they just improve the distribution during a crucial turn, especially if you play agile teams relying on 1d actions.
You can play flawlessly a drive and fail the score due to bad dice. Good coaches will be able to save their rrs for the final rush. People will not play with 8 rrs anyway, the number of rrs will still be 3 I guess, so if you start rerolling dice due to sloppy gameplay you will run out of rrs soon.


I bet you would look at other coaches and say they played sloppy, while your own dice fails are bad luck on a flawless drive. Minimizing dice rolls is part of the game. Allowing multiple RR reduces the risk associated with maximizing dice rolls. Again not necessarily a bad thing.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

In most games underdogs don't buy the inducements because the TV gap is lower than 50.
So, the difference is not important on the practical aspect of playing the game, but it is important when the CR gained or lost is calculated by the TV formula.
Even if you are underdog by 10 TV (which is too little to matter) yet you get a small CR bonus. This is why I often don't buy inducements if I'm underdog by 40 or lower.
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