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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2021 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Kondor wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Orcs too are good to smash stuff. It's the AV 10+ bash team edition.


You might be right. With no claw + Mb to worry about plus random skills that lower TV + Nerf to passing + seasons to keep TV even lower.

Dwarfs and Orcs are likely to shine. Perhaps undead with regen and easy blodgers.



Maybe I am not familiar enough with the new rules... but this post makes little sense...

The MB was doing nothing to Orcs and Dorfs in the 1st place... you still get the Claw that does the real damage anyway. It turns Orcs into immobile Wood Wood Elves.

Seasons mean Orcs and especially Dorfs must FIRE perfectly healthy players rather than keep developing them into a more efficient cog in a killing and winning machine.
So THAT nerfs the nerf to CLMB stack.
It is like a Mental Judo move forcing your opponent to remove his own players for you.

And with your thought on how MB and Claw don't stack...
perhaps some Coaches might actually take TACKLE instead so that they can FINALLY find out just how fragile Elves really are and stop thinking they are so OP.

The random skills MAYBE makes sense... but random skills are counterproductive to winning... so here it is the rules and not your post that makes little sense.


My point being that... once I won the Chaos XFL and I am not much of a Chaos Coach (I'm not even a top Coach in general). But I WON because I chose WINNING skills and not just KILL STACK skills.
Among the Beastmen I had a DP and an SG. I had 1 Blitzer built around the Kill Stack and 1 built around Tackle (which doesn't just help VS Elves... but nearly all designated Ball Carriers) and 1 built around Frenzy.
The CW were basically expensive Meat Shields built around Block and Guard.


A team with this much Frenzy... I get it that you probably must go Kill Skills constantly. (Even still some TACKLE could kelp with the killing).
But not with Chaos Chosen.
Skill them to WIN over skilling them to KILL and you will WIN with them more (except maybe during the no skills phase). Of course, Killing is part of Winning with them... but it is not any more important than any other aspect of the team.


In a situation where you could build your chaos team to high TV you are 100% correct. That will not be the case here on Fumbbl. To start each season you will be below 1350TV.

Your chaos blokes are slow to skill and they would likely take block, guard, and mighty blow before they start taking claw. This means on a fully developed chaos team I will be shocked to see more than one claw. Also, they will probably choose every skill they take meaning they will cost 20TV per skill.

In the meantime your dwarfs have been skilling with random skills and keeping player that roll guard, or mighty blow. You keep other skills depending on taste. At game 15 you cycle out the players you don't fancy and your TV stays very low.

Chaos will always be on the losing end of this arms race and they start with lower AV than dwarfs. In a league with matches based on TV dwarfs will have a lower team that is probably more competitive and they will have inducements to boost them.

Until chaos gets a couple of claws I would rather be the orc or the dwarf player.


Last edited by Kondor on Oct 05, 2021 - 20:20; edited 1 time in total
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 18:25 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Kondor"]
Catalyst32 wrote:
Kondor wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Orcs too are good to smash stuff. It's the AV 10+ bash team edition.




In a situation where you could build your chaos team to high TV you are 100% correct. That will not be the case here on Fumbbl. To start each season you will be below 1350TV.

Your chaos blokes are slow to skill and they would likely take block, guard, and mighty blow before they start taking claw. This means on a fully developed chaos team I will be shocked to see more than one claw. Also, they will probably choose every skill they take meaning they will cost 20TV per skill.

In the meantime your dwarfs have been skilling with random skills and keeping player that roll guard, or mighty blow. You keep other skills depending on taste. At game 15 you cycle out the players you don't fancy and your TV stays very low.

Chaos will always be on the losing end of this arms race and they start with lower TV than dwarfs. In a league with matches based on TV dwarfs will have a lower team that is probably more competitive and they will have inducements to boost them.

Until chaos gets a couple of claws I would rather be the orc or the dwarf player.


OK thanks that makes sense.

So it WAS my unfamiliarity with the new rules... or rather their implications on the game.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 21:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:

Chaos will always be on the losing end of this arms race and they start with lower AV than dwarfs. In a league with matches based on TV dwarfs will have a lower team that is probably more competitive and they will have inducements to boost them.

Until chaos gets a couple of claws I would rather be the orc or the dwarf player.

It makes me wonder if Chaos teams actually need to be more Chaotic this edition and embrace random skills. They are so far behind they need a bit of luck to get a leg up.

Take a random Mutation as first skill on some Beaastmen and build around it. Perhaps they do still want that one guy who takes Claw + MB just to worry the Orcs and Dwarfs? Knorne or Chaos Chosen are still going to be Tier 2 because they lack core skills.

We used to skill up players hoping for a double now we will be praying for a good random to save a team from obscurity.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

this is my chaos so far https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1044461
a couple of good randoms, a couple of killers, not enough guard

at that stage, a dwarf or orc team has more than a handful of guards (my orcs have 4 but only because I went MB instead of guard on bubs) and can redraft safely into a more or less identical shape

If I were to redraft now, I'd have to drop the Troll and probably half of my skilled players (strip ball goat: best goat!) because the 1350 cap means you need 100 of that to bring forward 5 good players, and my current TV is already beyond the cap.

my impression so far is, you can get a good run and build something fun, but you start almost from scratch every new season

(which, as far as I'm concerned, better than building 4+ players with killstacks and hovering at 2mil, overdogging apos just to be safe)
amazingprizzini



Joined: Dec 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
this is my chaos so far https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1044461
a couple of good randoms, a couple of killers, not enough guard

at that stage, a dwarf or orc team has more than a handful of guards (my orcs have 4 but only because I went MB instead of guard on bubs) and can redraft safely into a more or less identical shape

If I were to redraft now, I'd have to drop the Troll and probably half of my skilled players (strip ball goat: best goat!) because the 1350 cap means you need 100 of that to bring forward 5 good players, and my current TV is already beyond the cap.

my impression so far is, you can get a good run and build something fun, but you start almost from scratch every new season

(which, as far as I'm concerned, better than building 4+ players with killstacks and hovering at 2mil, overdogging apos just to be safe)
I think the skill level will be a bit higher at the end of the second season than the end of the first, starting from 1350 instead of 1,000. At least, I hope they are, and that some upper-level teams will be possible around 30 games. (maybe!)
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

thing is, you'll still have to cut them down to 1350 anyway, and I reckon the second cut is going to be more painful than the first Laughing

still a solid tier 2, no longer a bloaty chunk of insanely overbuilt metal boxes Smile

(which is probably going to be true for Khorne too, to bring it back to the topic at hand)
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I have to say any forced cut of your teams to fit under an arbitrary cap is crap.

1 of the best things about playing on FUMBBL is that you can play WITH and AGAINST teams that have grown into MONSTERS and LEGENDS.

GW trying to take that away cheapens the game.
It takes away an aspect of the game that NO ONE is forced to play in if they don't want to.
A Coach can always cut down their team on their own or START OVER with a NEW team if they don't want to play High-Level Blood Bowl.


But there is likely 1 good thing about the rule.
With all the teams hovering around the same level there might be more GAMES played.
I won't find myself looking to play my 1900 Elves or my 2200 Orcs or whatever in a sea of 1000 to 1350 whatever those other coaches want to play.

Of course, that depends on enough players wanting to play Low to Medium-Low Blood Bowl.


And YES I know there is always LEAGUE and I play there too.
But I can't really commit to more than 1 or 2 leagues at a time.
Ranked and Box are out there for when a Coach has time to play with no scheduling required.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

You might still be able to find some [SL16] big boys prepping for the next [SL]UMBBL Cup or Shield.

[SL]2020 is proposing more cash and a higher cap.

And if you still really, really, really don't like the cap...
You can always transfer out to another league when you hit 30 games (or exit a tournament) Twisted Evil
[SL]Monster League? Wink

Edit: Actually, I believe that Christer once said that standard/non custom [L]eague division won't have seasons.
So, if you can get him to transfer your teams... Wink

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Spoonie



Joined: Sep 20, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 05:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah I just plain disagree with all that. I never liked the fact that online bloodbowl had an endless infinite bloat style default game mode in the first place. I feel like redrafting and the level up system get rid of a lot of stuff I really just didn't care for about playing the game in an online setting.

Your MONSTER LEGEND status is riding on the team name, I suppose. How teams play getting totally turned upside down at high tv combined with the random stat rolls made it always feel to me that the most defining feature of teams was how many carefully groomed game breaking stat freaks they had.

With the new systems, you avoid things like chaos going from blundering doofuses to elite murder squad because of the fact that they have more good skills to take and infinite opportunity to earn them. And having things like a double +AG Bull Centaur or what-have-you that could really shake up the way a team plays has a direct opportunity cost instead of just being a combination of time and luck.

Overall my experience with 2k+ TV has been pretty much just eye rolling, I always felt like the game just fell apart and just 'didn't work'. So a little 'franchise mode' resigning of players and resetting to a modest TV sounds much preferable.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 06:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Spoonie wrote:
Yeah I just plain disagree with all that. I never liked the fact that online bloodbowl had an endless infinite bloat style default game mode in the first place. I feel like redrafting and the level up system get rid of a lot of stuff I really just didn't care for about playing the game in an online setting.

Your MONSTER LEGEND status is riding on the team name, I suppose. How teams play getting totally turned upside down at high tv combined with the random stat rolls made it always feel to me that the most defining feature of teams was how many carefully groomed game breaking stat freaks they had.

With the new systems, you avoid things like chaos going from blundering doofuses to elite murder squad because of the fact that they have more good skills to take and infinite opportunity to earn them. And having things like a double +AG Bull Centaur or what-have-you that could really shake up the way a team plays has a direct opportunity cost instead of just being a combination of time and luck.

Overall my experience with 2k+ TV has been pretty much just eye rolling, I always felt like the game just fell apart and just 'didn't work'. So a little 'franchise mode' resigning of players and resetting to a modest TV sounds much preferable.


That is a completely understandable feeling about high TV games.

However there is a huge difference. In the previous edition you could choose to build a high TV team or play at a lower TV where you enjoyed the game more.

Now, everyone will be forced into playing the lower TV bandwidth.

My guess is that once the new automatic scheduler is working in the Competitive division, many coaches who play a lot and like to win, will heavily play using a couple of races. The new complaint will go from "I am sick of playing against high level CD, Chaos, and Nurgle" to "Why do I only get games against dwarfs and orcs." It also means you will not be able to avoid those coaches because they will be forced down into the lower band of TV.

And to keep this on topic, Khorne will not be one of the preferred teams in this lower band of TV.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Given how the more "flavoured" chaos teams are setup, it feels like vanilla chaos could do with a little rework. Maybe some cheap cultists to replace a few beastmen? I'd like to see a positional with a starting skill, just to ease a bit of the pain when starting out. Maybe a chaos mutant, that starts with lineman stats and big hand and a tail or something
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

It would have been nice to get a random starting mutation on Chosen (increasing their cost to 110k).
Chaos should be a team with random mutations. The starting roster doesn't embody that lore aspect.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 13:00
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
It would have been nice to get a random starting mutation on Chosen (increasing their cost to 110k).
Chaos should be a team with random mutations. The starting roster doesn't embody that lore aspect.


Agreed but impossible. People would, of course, endlessly remake the team until they got claw.

The only way i could see it to be done, and people would still rinse and repeat, is to have a 'boon' granted as the game begins, something along the lines of....

If a chosen of chaos team start the game with less than 3 mutations then a single X player (one of: Chosen, or beastmen, or anyone) gains one free random mutation roll permanently.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
It would have been nice to get a random starting mutation on Chosen (increasing their cost to 110k).
Chaos should be a team with random mutations. The starting roster doesn't embody that lore aspect.


Agreed but impossible. People would, of course, endlessly remake the team until they got claw.

The only way i could see it to be done, and people would still rinse and repeat, is to have a 'boon' granted as the game begins, something along the lines of....

If a chosen of chaos team start the game with less than 3 mutations then a single X player (one of: Chosen, or beastmen, or anyone) gains one free random mutation roll permanently.


Chosen of Nurgle gives the chance to get a rotter.

I still wonder what the special rule will be for Chosen of Khorne.

Perhaps they could choose to take mighty blow twice on players allowing them to have up to MB(+2).
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
It would have been nice to get a random starting mutation on Chosen (increasing their cost to 110k).
Chaos should be a team with random mutations. The starting roster doesn't embody that lore aspect.


Agreed but impossible. People would, of course, endlessly remake the team until they got claw.

The only way i could see it to be done, and people would still rinse and repeat, is to have a 'boon' granted as the game begins, something along the lines of....

If a chosen of chaos team start the game with less than 3 mutations then a single X player (one of: Chosen, or beastmen, or anyone) gains one free random mutation roll permanently.


I like that, but could also do non permanently.

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