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Poll
Thoughts?
Genius
7%
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Stupid
30%
 30%  [ 4 ]
Pie
61%
 61%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 13


mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 02:06
FUMBBL Staff
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A number of threads and blogs have now gone the same way recently, trending towards arguments about Seasons implementation and the new rules in general not being for them. I thought it might good to have a discussion thread on the subject. I don't expect to find a consensus, but at least it should keep the other threads on track for a time.

I've been thinking for a while about the format of the main divisions on Fumbbl, not for any particular reason other than my own idle musings. You'll never please everyone, but I believe we could find a format that gives most people a place to play in a way they enjoy.

Competitive
The competitive division is the one that stays as close as possible to the main rules. It's important for the site to have a version of the game that runs as close as possible to the currently published ruleset.

This division should use the seasonal structure, but I think it's important to embrace this as more than just a TV limiting mechanism. I would approach this as a mix of BB2's CCL and Fumbbl's Black Box Trophy. You enter a team, it gets to play a limited number of games in a season and achieves a 'score.' Matches would be set using a scheduler, and matched by games played in the current season, then TV.

A season should have awards, and should be a set time period. I would propose 3 month seasons, fitting the current Major Tournament schedule (Dec-Feb, Mar-May, Jun-Aug, Sep-Nov). Each Major has certain qualification criteria that must be met by participation in the preceding season. This can be different for each tournament, giving 4 themed seasons per year. We could also have racial rewards, top scorers awards.

After each season, teams that don't qualify for the major are reset to 1300TV. Teams that do qualify reset after their participation has ended, and the whole thing starts over.

Open
I don't feel that the Open division should be as wed to the current rules (and I say that as someone who is enjoying bb2020). There are a lot of people who dislike the new ruleset. Fumbbl has in the past supported a division of non-official rosters and custom rules in Stunty Leeg. This was successful for a time, but ultimately suffered from poor player numbers and no staff. Secret League has a high number of players, very dedicated staff, a comprehensive set of rosters. It works, but lacks the 'official' tag. I firmly believe that being made 'Fumbbl Official' would be great for the environment and the site. It would need a better name, but let it run it's own official tournaments, have a Fumbbl-only ruleset in a main division. No seasons if it doesn't want them, teams and players can have long histories. The fluff plays into that. I'd love to see it pick up some of the old Stunty tournament ideas like the Necromiser and the Exploding Cup, but that's just by preference, they should be free to organise their tournament calendar however they want.

Let the division change the rules. As long as the fundamentals stay the same, and people still recognise it as Blood Bowl, what's the harm? Ruleset by consensus, managed by the people running the division (just as the BB rules themselves were for so long), tailored to what their players want.

League
League is the easiest one as I'd keep this exactly as it is. League continues to increase in popularity and the options are there for all manner of tailored environments.

I still believe Fumbbl can support 3 main divisions. League remains, the others are replacements for what have been Ranked and Box.

People may (will) shoot down these suggestions, or have issues with them. Fair enough, go for it. Explain your own Fumbbl utopia for others to critique. We all play and love the same game.

-Josh

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C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 10:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I think I'm struggling a bit to visualise what Open would actually look like. Would it effectively be a Fummbl 'endorsed' ruleset variance from the Competitive ruleset?

Getting consensus on what that should be sounds "fun". My gut feeling is you may as well just let people make the rulesets they want with their mates in League.

If Open would be the place that allowed custom ruelsets but had its own Blackbox/Gamefinder then I can see it gaining some traction, but whether it's enough to justify the effort to create (and sustain) that I'm not sure.

Edit: to add my Utopia as you mentioned.

It's very simple - I'll play competitive with teams and don't have any real concerns with redraft (I've barely got any teams at 15+ games anyway).....then I'll play a perpetual league where I can build a monster team if I want.

With the league though I firmly believes 2020 rules with the 2016 skill rolls is by far the best way to achieve a sensible perpetual league if you want to build legendary players. The new skill up system just gives too much control on what skills you get without redraft.


Last edited by C0ddlefish on Oct 16, 2021 - 10:34; edited 2 times in total
RedFish



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 10:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the issue with making Secret League "official", is that you're essentially making the entirety of the people running that FUMBBL Staff. This brings about it its own problems, for the staff as well as Christer, I imagine. Right now the league is free to change out the people running it as they please, but this wouldn't really be the case if it was to be made official.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 12:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally, I'd like to play my teams in Competitive without stopping at 15 games and waiting till 3 months.
I'm not against the Season Redraft (as Christer said it's an important part of the ruleset), but I don't want to play a team for 15 games-only, then be forced to make a new one if I don't want to wait for 3 months.
So, Season Redraft yes, 3 months wait no. That said, if the 3 months affects only Box Trophy teams while the non-Trophy teams are not affected, then it's ok for me.
I talk about non-Trophy teams, to be clear.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 13:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't get the need for qualifiers to join a Major. Wouldn't that just reduce the number of participating teams and thus harm the general appeal for coaches?
It surely makes sense to add the option not to redraft after 15 games when applying for a post season tournament next.
But why should coaches have to wait potentially months to keep on playing instead of having the option to redraft at once and start a new season run?

What is the Open division? Is it really needed? Leagues can kinda fulfill the need for Blood Bowl variations. Including crazy tournament ideas and different/no draftcaps etc
I don't see the need for an additional "official" division. I see fumbbl utopias are already possible and realized; Secret League, crazy New Zealanders, several Draft Leagues and XXXL already created their own Utopias and seem not to struggle gaining enough coaches. I feel confident there will be even more options soon and it just needs coaches who are motivated and willed enough to organize their ideal environment.

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 13:23 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:

Competitive
The competitive division is the one that stays as close as possible to the main rules. It's important for the site to have a version of the game that runs as close as possible to the currently published ruleset.

I agree with you about Competative. However there is one caveat that MattDakka raises

MattDakka wrote:
Personally, I'd like to play my teams in Competitive without stopping at 15 games and waiting till 3 months.

My slight change to address this is after 15 games the team either enters the Major or it can redraft and try again with another season.

Once you are a few season into Competitive there is no real difference between a team that is in Season X or X+5 or X+9 They have all played more than one season and redrafted to 1300 (or 1350). I see no problem with people clicking "End Season - redraft" and playing again rather than "End Season - Enter Major". I have never entered a FUMBBL tournament but I actually think I will give it a go once we have seasons.

mister__joshua wrote:

League
League is the easiest one as I'd keep this exactly as it is. League continues to increase in popularity and the options are there for all manner of tailored environments.

These will be fine people will start or join the leagues they want. 2020 or 2016 skills; seasons or no season. There is plenty of options for those that like high or low TV. I have started to play more in Leagues and am looking forward to the changes being pushed into this division. My goal is to get into 3 regular fortnightly leagues. That way I have enough time to schedule the games and not miss a round for family holidays or my work rota.

mister__joshua wrote:

Open
I don't feel that the Open division should be as wed to the current rules (and I say that as someone who is enjoying bb2020). There are a lot of people who dislike the new ruleset.

I think this is the problem area. What do you replace Ranked with? I am not keen on playing against Secret League teams but I am happy for them to exist. With a game finder I can avoid those games. Although to be honest I had given up with ranked game finder. I only used it if Black Box was not active enough to schedule matches.

Overall I am ambivalent about Open. I will probably just ignore whatever replacement ends up in this space. If it has none-standard teams I am much more likely to ignore it. Not sure how much of the player base would also feel that way? Anyway I guess the point I am making is how do you make an open division that attracts the most players? I do not have the answer but my view is your idea will not do that.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

The only reason to use seasons is to push matches into a lower TV range.

Regarding the competitive division, I am going to take a risk and try to paraphrase Christer from a thread about a year ago. In essence most games are already played at a lower TV and some people are turned off by being forced to play as a large underdog. Setting the 15 game season with a 1350 TV will make it easier to get games while catering to those who do not want to play against large TV differences.

He knows this site better than anyone and I will support his decision. With an automatic scheduler I think this is probably a good choice though it pains me.

Merging R and B into the completive division also consolidate the coaching pool. Even if you don't always use the black box, you can choose to throw your teams in if you tire of waiting for a game in game finder.

This then leads me to Secret League. My guess is that it will become like the old Ranked setting. As you are never forced to accept a match you don't like, my preference would be to set season length very high so that people could play at whatever TV they choose. The only reason to even have seasons would be allow you to choose to start a new season at a lower TV if you are having difficulty finding a match.

(I really would like to see an optional black box in SL even with no limits.)
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