Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Sep 30, 2021 - 15:46 |
 
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The open, perpetual environment will never be the same as a closed league. If you want a league, play league. I see people advertising for them all the time and I’m sure they would be happy to have you.
The only net positive I can see for unlocking matchmaking from TV is that stunties can be run with inducements. Other than that, I don’t see how matchmaking will diminish TV min/maxing. Honestly I am more scared of getting Morged by a TV optimized team than facing an optimized team without inducements. +2 MB will destroy a team. |
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commisaro
Joined: Nov 15, 2015
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Sep 30, 2021 - 16:30 |
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+1 to the OP. It makes me sad that inducements and Star Players are irrelevant in [C] 95% of the time. There are also whole inducement-based team builds (mainly for Stunties) that are not viable due to matched TV, and TV matchmaking leads to a particular type of min-maxing (e.g. firing a player that gets a sub-optimal random skill), that I find less fun. |
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Silent_Hastati
Joined: Nov 04, 2014
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Sep 30, 2021 - 17:30 |
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I would have to agree that with the much more condensed TV ranges, more powerful inducements, and specific season sizes, that season based MM would be the best option, not just from a fairness standpoint but to staying woth the intended feeling of a season based progression environment. For simplicity sake, I would say simply breaking the teams down into early, mid, and late season for the MM or GF would be the best option, instead of trying to get the perfect out of 15 match. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Sep 30, 2021 - 20:22 |
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I'd like to see suitability based on ∆(games into season) or my earlier suggestion of ∆(2x wins + ties), rather than going by cluster. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Sep 30, 2021 - 20:23 |
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| Silent_Hastati wrote: | | I would have to agree that with the much more condensed TV ranges, more powerful inducements, and specific season sizes, that season based MM would be the best option, not just from a fairness standpoint but to staying woth the intended feeling of a season based progression environment. For simplicity sake, I would say simply breaking the teams down into early, mid, and late season for the MM or GF would be the best option, instead of trying to get the perfect out of 15 match. |
I would agree that using stage in the season or even number of seasons played to help match teams is fine. It will not hurt and could provide better matches.
However, I would argue that unlike in the previous black box, there should never be a situation where at least 4 coaches have activated and there is no draw. |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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Sep 30, 2021 - 20:29 |
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Games into season feels fair. If this were a democracy, it would get my vote 👠|
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Sep 30, 2021 - 21:41 |
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This was a good thread. Yay if seasons allows this new way of match making. |
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Dalfort
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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Oct 01, 2021 - 00:11 |
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I have had a couple of days not getting my laptop out and found this thread when I logged in, so I read the first page, saw a post by Dakka and jumped here...
Faction (a now defunct Division) had 2 week rounds with pools of 20 Teams where 10 games were scoring yet you could still play the other coaches (used in LRB4 as recovery games... or, for me at least, extra Top 25 List stat hunting but I digress).
The other interesting aspect of Faction was that there was promotion and relegation akin to football (or soccer for our American friends) which provides a competitive theme those that are inclined towards can sink their teeth into.
I miss those Faction days but I won't keep mentioning it once it gets dismissed again  |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 01, 2021 - 00:36 |
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Dalfort
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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Oct 01, 2021 - 00:53 |
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| koadah wrote: | Dismissed.
I'm surprised it worked at all.
If we had 100 or more Dalforts it might have a chance. |
Fortunately I am unique 
I liked the format but I really don't think a 2 week window would work in the current environment. For me it was the Randomised Scoring match-ups that made it interesting, I being an actual noob at the time played as many games as I could and only due to it's dying numbers did I reach the top division and an eventual Bronze finish!
Also, as a separate Division it would stand absolutely no chance of success but as "the" Competitive the player base wouldn't be split any further than it is now.
* disclaimer, my shutting up comes when Christer or PC tell me Faction is dismissed |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 01, 2021 - 01:46 |
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| Dalfort wrote: | | * disclaimer, my shutting up comes when Christer or PC tell me Faction is dismissed |
It is never really dismissed as anyone who has the will could recreate it in the League division.
But once the ultra competitive guys get involved, first they suck the joy out of it. Then they suck the life out of it.
Then the commish gets sick and tired of them whining about "no one will play me", even though they suddenly remember that they are very busy if the "wrong" kind of offer comes in.
Who has the will? |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Dalfort
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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Oct 01, 2021 - 01:50 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Dalfort wrote: | | * disclaimer, my shutting up comes when Christer or PC tell me Faction is dismissed |
It is never really dismissed as anyone who has the will could recreate it in the League division.
But once the ultra competitive guys get involved, first they suck the joy out of it. Then they suck the life out of it.
Then the commish gets sick and tired of them whining about "no one will play me", even though they suddenly remember that they are very busy if the "wrong" kind of offer comes in.
Who has the will? |
Very fair response, I was tempted but I have no idea how to code/emulate the random scoring mechanism... OBBA captures the Footy feel enough as well so... I'll consider it dismissed, congrats |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 01, 2021 - 02:05 |
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| Dalfort wrote: |
Very fair response, I was tempted but I have no idea how to code/emulate the random scoring mechanism... OBBA captures the Footy feel enough as well so... I'll consider it dismissed, congrats |
Ah. Actually, I was remembering it from before the random matching. IIRC that was brought in because of the dodging and colluding to deny people games. That part would not be easy for just anyone to do. But as it didn't save Faction back when Fumbbl did more business than it does now. Again, who has the will?
If you try to hard schedule it, then yeah... You're not much different from OBBA, SWL, WIL etc., etc., etc.
May as well just join them.
Edit: Maybe it's time to re-form The Gentlemen's Club.
Though I suppose in this day and age it really ought to admit ladies or anyone acceptable to the Membership. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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almic85
Joined: May 25, 2009
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Oct 01, 2021 - 07:02 |
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The Faction division did die for a reason though, which was not enough people wanted to play in as opposed to just playing in the old Ranked division pre match maker.
As Koadah pointed out Faction forced the need for TV matchmaking in a season environment to make sure it was actually being fair and not just allowing people to pick their games against favourable opponents.
It was largely the spiritual ancestor of Blackbox which did away with the idea of seasons and just pushed forced match making for the entire division.
All this is a big theoretical argument though as Competitive division doesn’t force the use of a match making system. You can still pick whatever team you want to play against, organise a password and have both players log on and play.
While that gives people some leeway to play as they want, it does also open up the system to exploit if someone builds their team for the entire season against favourable teams then starts playing match maker games along the way. So you will start hitting teams that have been optimised to win at certain parts in the season cycle, and not really have any way to take it into account if your selected opponent is purely based on games played this season. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Oct 01, 2021 - 08:46 |
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I agree with PurpleChest. I think there are some really well constructed, well articulated arguments in this thread (I had to check I was on the internet for a moment), but TV is the best place to start with BB2020. I have always subscribed to the view that the best ‘pick-up’ Blood Bowl is the Blood Bowl where the teams are roughly equal and then we see what happens. TV was always imperfect, but it was better than any other system outside of TS and the experienced human eye at determining ‘equal’.
I remember being told that, statistically, inducements in the before times made games pretty much 50/50 across a wide enough sample size. When I look at the new stars and their costings, I end up strongly suspecting that I’d rather be the TV underdog in the majority of situations. So it works both ways, matching by TV. Even if those previous games really were 50/50, the actual BB you played was never the most satisfying, in my experience. Yey, my Wizard went mental. Well done me. Oh, all my players died but Griff did something amazing, got a draw.
I am more than happy to be proven wrong in a year, or whatever. But for now, I don’t think changing the basis of matchmaking online is the way I’d go. |
Last edited by Purplegoo on %b %01, %2021 - %08:%Oct; edited 2 times in total |
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