| Poll |
| Season Redraft: |
| It is a Must. Should strictly follows BB2020 User Manual rules (15 games sharp etc..,) |
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26% |
[ 34 ] |
| It is a Must. But not strictly following BB2020 Manual (f.i : after more than 15 games and/or different redraft rules... ) |
|
23% |
[ 30 ] |
| It is nice to have and can be implemented in several way. I am flexible. |
|
23% |
[ 31 ] |
| I don't like it, but I will accept to be done with one of the previous option |
|
5% |
[ 7 ] |
| I don't like at all and I think should NEVER be implemented in FUMBBL! |
|
12% |
[ 16 ] |
| Pie! |
|
9% |
[ 12 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 130 |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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 Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:45 |
 
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| moph wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
Better for the more competitive demographic they're aiming at. Make it more like a "proper" game. |
Do You think they are aiming at competitive players? I would asume the casual market is bigger? |
I didn't mean only ultra competitive coaches.
I meant that it is a two person game and some will consider the winning to be important.
Losing when they consider themselves to be the better coach seems to traumatise some people.
Many people seem not able to laugh when (they feel that) Nuffle is against them.
It sometimes appears that their entire sense of self worth is tied to getting a good result in the games that they play.
Blood bowl has never been a good game for such people. 
So, it seems that Nuffle's influence is reduced in every new set of rules. The game is being to pushed ever closer to being a proper, serious game.
| moph wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
Pfft. Teambuilding? Roleplaying? There's no money in that. |
The better the game for a broad audience the more minis you can sell. Creating bad rules with the goal to sell minis will not work in the long run. |
GW have their goals. Some people deny that there is a roleplaying element to the game. It is pure strategy game to them.
I'm sure that some don't read the fluff, don't know anything about real sport, don't get the references, jokes, spirit of the game.
To those people, the rules probably don't seem that bad.
"Pieces" FFS! |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:49 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | All this will not mitigate the min-max tiers1 problem raised by Nelphine
| Nelphine wrote: | | Redraft, due to agent fees, will heavily favor teams which can redraft onlyv1 or 2 players - you'll redraft a legend ball carrier, and a legend killer. The rest of the team will be rookies. This will heavily favor teams who have strong rookies - which are the tier 1 teams. |
|
To achieve the desired effect, skills gained and their type (primary/secondary/stat) should be part of the agent's fees calculation.
A player need not play any agent's fee if they have gained no skills.
But your stat freak... |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:49 |
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A BB match tends to last 1 hour so. When things go wrong it's hard to laugh about them, because you know you wasted lot of time (there can be extra reasons to laugh, such as playing vs a close friend for fun or drunk, but vs random online unknown people there could not be such a social bonus aspect).
If BB were a quicker game some of the frustration due to randomness would be reduced.
One thing is pulling the lever of a slot machine and lose in few seconds, another one is spending almost 1 hour thinking about the right moves to do and then losing due to some wild randomness, especially if you are aware that your opponent played without thinking as much as you did.
The more randomness is involved in a game, the shorter should that game be. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| MattDakka wrote: | | vs random online unknown people there could not be such a social bonus aspect |
I absolutely and strongly disagree with this.
Reducing your opponent to an emotionless robot is a sad thing that happens in online games. It categorically does not *have* to be like this and people could in theory be nice and polite and understand there's a real person on the other end.
As for the thread topic, I may be posting something longer-form as a blog. Need to collect my thoughts on it a bit and see if it forms into something even slightly coherent. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 13:15 |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 13:30 |
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| Christer wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | vs random online unknown people there could not be such a social bonus aspect |
I absolutely and strongly disagree with this.
Reducing your opponent to an emotionless robot is a sad thing that happens in online games. It categorically does not *have* to be like this and people could in theory be nice and polite and understand there's a real person on the other end. |
To be fair, (at least some of the time) many people won't want this. There are times when playing a decent AI would be better all round. If only there was such a thing.
The last game I found on Gamefinder, I ended up pulling the plug on. I haven't used Gamefinder or Box since.
Yes, the admins did get in touch. 
Before anyone starts... It was a [L]eague division game. 
| Christer wrote: |
As for the thread topic, I may be posting something longer-form as a blog. Need to collect my thoughts on it a bit and see if it forms into something even slightly coherent. |
Wouldn't it be easier to do a straight 1 to 1 with PC for an hour?
Then we wouldn't need to listen to all those Cyanide blokes blathering on. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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 Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 13:37 |
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| Christer wrote: |
As for the thread topic, I may be posting something longer-form as a blog. Need to collect my thoughts on it a bit and see if it forms into something even slightly coherent. |
That's would be useful Christer thank you !
I am very interested in the re-draft and how it will be implemented ! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 13:48 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | Christer wrote: |
As for the thread topic, I may be posting something longer-form as a blog. Need to collect my thoughts on it a bit and see if it forms into something even slightly coherent. |
That's would be useful Christer thank you !
I am very interested in the re-draft and how it will be implemented ! |
We've already been told that but I can't remember where.
You can see the parameters though. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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 Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 13:50 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | A BB match tends to last 1 hour so. When things go wrong it's hard to laugh about them, because you know you wasted lot of time (there can be extra reasons to laugh, such as playing vs a close friend for fun or drunk, but vs random online unknown people there could not be such a social bonus aspect).
If BB were a quicker game some of the frustration due to randomness would be reduced.
One thing is pulling the lever of a slot machine and lose in few seconds, another one is spending almost 1 hour thinking about the right moves to do and then losing due to some wild randomness, especially if you are aware that your opponent played without thinking as much as you did.
The more randomness is involved in a game, the shorter should that game be. |
This happens in my opinion because you live this community in your own, isolated way
You do not participate in discussions in Discord
You do not participate in any leagues (apart from the Secret Leaugue which I believe you play very seldom)
You very rarely participate in tournaments, never in Trophy
You play almost exclusively in blackboxes
The point of being in a community - for me - is also to get to know each other, to make friends. FUMBBL will have about 500 very active coaches (so not so many), you who play at least 2 games a day since 2007 will know them all. So when you meet some more experienced player you know you are not playing against a stranger.
If you meet a rookie or a veteran instead you might be nice and teach them the game in spite considering "one hour lost time" in case bad luck.
Again you see always the dark side of the moon... never the nice and good things..
What you said about "wasting an hour of my time..." is really humanly the saddest thing you could write.
[Edited by staff to remove some unfortunate wording. Please avoid personal attacks] |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| koadah wrote: | | Wouldn't it be easier to do a straight 1 to 1 with PC for an hour? |
It's a lot easier (and safer) if I get to take my time and collect my thoughts. I have to be careful how I express myself in general. If I say something that is an initial intuitive idea, some people might take that as a thought-out fact that will happen and that I'm planning rather than being a possible idea that I didn't see as obviously bad at the time.
Mostly everything I post have to go through some kind of filter in a way that I can reasonably defend the opinion. Otherwise people will be questioning it and saying their idea is better.
The topic of this thread is a good example of this, where something that I came up with quite some time ago gets questioned and I end up needing to "defend" my position, and clarify why I believe the original plans are still good.
I don't mind reiterating things (especially since it's been quite some time since the original plan was devised), but if I hadn't actually spent the time really trying to find a good system, it would have been silly to try to defend something I didn't really believe in.
That being said, I am not saying I always make the correct decisions. I try to do my best for what I believe is best for the community as a whole, and accept that it might be the wrong decision occasionally. If I end up making some critical misjudgement, I'm not beyond admitting it was a mistake and changing things back.
We'll see how seasons and re-drafting end up, perhaps I'm walking off of a cliff in that regard. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 14:17 |
|
| Christer wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | vs random online unknown people there could not be such a social bonus aspect |
I absolutely and strongly disagree with this.
Reducing your opponent to an emotionless robot is a sad thing that happens in online games. It categorically does not *have* to be like this and people could in theory be nice and polite and understand there's a real person on the other end.
|
Indeed but according to my experience, some coaches, even native English speakers, are not that social and chatty. I don't want people to be emotionless robots (I wrote: "there could not be such a social bonus aspect", I didn't write: "I don't want a social aspect"), yet some of them are and you can't choose to avoid them in the Box. When you find one of them and get diced as well there is nothing to have fun from. Some are silent and take ages to play every turn because, due to lack of rrs, they need to think about every trivial block. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %19, %2023 - %14:%May; edited 5 times in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 14:32 |
|
| RDaneel wrote: |
You play almost exclusively in blackboxes |
Yes, and I play there more games than many other people here and I write on forums. I'm interacting enough with the community. Also, there is no need to point the finger at me. I just talked in general about the reasons of being frustrated by a game, not that I don't interact with the community and thus I'm frustrated when I play a game.
| RDaneel wrote: | | The point of being in a community - for me - is also to get to know each other, to make friends. |
Friends are in my book different from online acquaintances. Friends are people you know well in real life, and are rare. As a Dwarf would tell you, it's the time who writes your friend list, not just knowing somebody by his online nickname.
You call friends people I would call online acquaintances.
| RDaneel wrote: | | So when you meet some more experienced player you know you are not playing against a stranger. |
1) I don't know everybody, having played vs somebody doesn't mean I really know him as person;
2) I play vs some people who are totally unknown to me, some are new coaches at all or I rarely played vs them, some are people I played many times but still I don't know them. Playing vs somebody lots of games doesn't mean knowing him well as person. You could know well his gameplay, but not him.
| RDaneel wrote: | | If you meet a rookie or a veteran instead you might be nice and teach them the game in spite considering "one hour lost time" in case bad luck. |
I do that as well, in game and via PM. Even when I'm friendly, some people get offended if I comment their roster and tactics, even in a polite way but yes, I do it if people don't get offended. Heck, I sent you a PM with the 1TTD guide and you threatened to report me.
I even wrote an article for GLN, it doesn't seem to me that I don't interact with the community.
| RDaneel wrote: |
What you said about "wasting an hour of my time..." is really humanly the saddest thing you could write.
|
A human being should well know that time is the currency of life and should be spent well. I could not care about wasting time if I were immortal. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %19, %2023 - %14:%May; edited 4 times in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 14:34 |
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| Christer wrote: | | Otherwise people will be questioning it and saying their idea is better. |
But, we're always going to think that our ideas are better.
For us at least. 
The main issue with this thread I think, is that some people haven't seen the information that is already available. People who have seen it, don't know where to find it.
| Christer wrote: |
We'll see how seasons and re-drafting end up, perhaps I'm walking off of a cliff in that regard. |
Judging by the games that are being played at the moment, the current plan will probably work well enough.
The people who don't like it seem to be mainly people who like keeping their teams at a certain mid/high or high TV.
Those people will have to suck it up and accept that they won't "get their Fumbbl back" at least until the next ruleset release if ever.
Old codgers grumbling about how it was all so much better in their day is the natural way of the World. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 14:40 |
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I like mid TV, yet I think that some TV trimming is required.
Otherwise I could be facing either those nasty high TV killer teams or low TV teams with underpriced Wizards. 
Also, it's not easy to find a Season Re-Draft formula which doesn't piss too many people off.
We should test the 15-game Season Re-Draft first, I think that it should be possible to adjust it later in case.
Just my own humble and particular opinion, I'm not commanding Christer to do anything. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 16:39 |
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It seems to me that the issue of redraft when you boil it all down comes down to three broad groups of players.
#1 Redraft is good because it keeps the C div into a very finite range of TV, thus making it easier to get matches in the scheduler. These guys usually are the competitive type of coaches.
#2 The legacy type of coaches who like the idea of team managament and developing a well rounded roster. Play way more on one or two specific teams, make team and player bios and such. Yes their TV over time will inflate but those types of teams are not a part of box trophy, dont really compete in tournaments and live on the fringe of C. Redraft basically hits these types of coaches hard and basically renders their play style pointless.
#3 The current system of C play has seemed to shifted towards Box Trophy sprints and not playing more that 15+ games on teams. So for those coaches they dont care about redraft. They have found the perfect avenue inside FUMBBL to play open games, in a tournament format (Box Trophy), easy to find games on scheduler and have no interest in building up a team with 50+ games and doing all that fluff stuff on their team.
So IMO this debate/discussion really comes down to Camp #1 VS Camp #2. Camp #3 has no interest in this at all, it does not effect them.
So
Redraft is good to keep the vast majority of teams in a very finite TV range which is good in order to find games
VS
I want to buid a team of well rounded players and play 100+ games on a single team and make legends and put as much fluff and fun as possible on that team.
In the end I do believe that the legacy type teams and team building will fall by the wayside of redraft because there are a lot more coaches in camp #1 VS camp #2.
In the wise words of koadah: Suck it up camp #2, your days are numbered. Either fall in line or go find a new game. (amended quote) |
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