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Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 17:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Dear Nuffle Cultists,

I have a question about Jump Up, specifically how it works with the Blitz Action. There you go:

Given a prone player having the Jump Up skill, when a Blitz action is declared on that player, do they need to roll an agility check to perform the Block foreseen by the Blitz action? Also, I am also interested to know if that player is able to use the full movement - that seems obvious, but please be explicit on that.


I have my theory on that, but I prefer to submit my question to this very knowledgeable community without risking to affect the outcome. I would also love to read an official communication somewhere, as my league is pretty strict on the literal interpretation of the game rules. Actually, I have even forwarded this same request to the game support provided by Games Workshop that regularly updates their FAQ pdf file to see it answered there - but Nuffle knows when they will add it...

Thanks a lot and may Nuffle be with you!

update: I will add here that the online games provided by Cyanide do not require a roll in this case.


Last edited by Javark on Jan 04, 2024 - 17:20; edited 2 times in total
spelledaren



Joined: Mar 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

You do not have to roll.

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Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

how do you reach this conclusion, using the definitions in the Season 2 manual? The counter argument that I was given was:
- Blitz is a Block action, so the check is needed according to the second definition in the Jump Up skill;
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 17:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I miss the era when Jump Up simply reduced standing up cost to 0. It was most efficient. Someone in Notts must have lost a game or two against rookie Norse and decided it was THAT.
Ay up!

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Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Javark wrote:
how do you reach this conclusion, using the definitions in the Season 2 manual? The counter argument that I was given was:
- Blitz is a Block action, so the check is needed according to the second definition in the Jump Up skill;


No, a blitz is a combined move and block action. The rules clearly say you only need to roll when declaring a block action, blitz is a different kind of action

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Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Candlejack wrote:
Javark wrote:
how do you reach this conclusion, using the definitions in the Season 2 manual? The counter argument that I was given was:
- Blitz is a Block action, so the check is needed according to the second definition in the Jump Up skill;


No, a blitz is a combined move and block action. The rules clearly say you only need to roll when declaring a block action, blitz is a different kind of action


That's exactly my argument, but I was replied "yes, but it contains a Move action and a Block action. Since you do a Block, you must perform the check.

I actually replied also that the Blitz contains also a Move action. And that's enough to stand up for free (first part of Jump Up). But the definition of Blitz seems to create confusion here.
Lorebass



Joined: Jun 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 18:07
FUMBBL Staff
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"Move and Block" involves moving first.
Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2024 - 18:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks a lot for the effort! I guess I will go back with the same replies I gave already and hope that it will make the Jump Up I have... less nerfed Smile
Ardonite



Joined: Feb 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 00:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I would counter with the fact that you are not required to use a block action as part of the blitz. Additionally as blitz is its own action type, and jump up does not say to roll on a blitz, this should be enough.
Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Ardonite wrote:
I would counter with the fact that you are not required to use a block action as part of the blitz. Additionally as blitz is its own action type, and jump up does not say to roll on a blitz, this should be enough.


The first part has been countered with "if you don't use the Block action and you only use the movement part of the Blitz, it's normal that you don't roll the check. If you do decide to use the Block part of the Blitz, though, the second part of the Jump Up rule kicks in".

My main argument was exactly that Blitz is a very different (and much more relevant) action than Block and since it's not specified in the rule that this "exceptional action" is included, I should not roll the check. But, literally, Jump Up quotes the Block action and Block can be used or not in a Blitz.

To be honest, I have always played with the interpretation given by the community (even the online version is implemented like this), but I can see the need of an official FAQ to make sure that alternative interpretations are excluded.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 10:28 Reply with quote Back to top

First thing it says, is you can stand up for free, without spending 3 points of movement.

On your blitz action, you can move first, before the block. From prone that would cost 3 points of movement, but you may stand up for free because you have Jump Up. Like, that's the rule.


The second part is explicitly for Block actions. Where, normally you must be standing to Block, and with Jump Up, you can roll to get a Block.

Note, with a Blitz action, you are already standing up when taking your Block action, there's no need to roll a die to stand up for free, because you stood up for free as part of the Move action in the Blitz action.

Note that the rule for blocking is in addition to standing up for free when moving. You're moving as part of the Blitz action, so you've already stood up for free, and in addition you don't need to stand up for free again because you already stood up for free.

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Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 11:25 Reply with quote Back to top

thanks a lot for the effort. Everything is very convincing for me: I have no doubt that this is the only interpretation and that the second part of the Jump Up skill is exclusively dedicated to the Block action, that is: you stand up for free (so you do not need to use a Move action to stand). Since you don't need to use the Move action to stand (and pay it 3 squares), anyone could reach the conclusion that the player can still perform the Block action. So the ruler has explicitly "limited" the strength of this skill by adding an *exception* to the "free" Block you might have by explicitly adding an additional agility check. Since the second part is an exception, though, the Blitz action is not listed so this limitation does not apply to Blitz.

Everything is very logical, but the wall I am hitting is "Blitz has the Block action, so the agility check is needed".

All in all, this interpretation is so restrictive that I might not buy a Witch Elf in my Dark Elf team (again, since the first one died xD)
Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 13:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Jump Up states that you can "jump up" to perform a block action when you are prone and for that you are required to roll. As part of the blitz you an use it for free to stand up and then are not prone anymore when performing the block.

There is a fundamental difference between declaring and performing. So you declare the blitz action perform a move action and are this not prone anymore when you perform the block.

The skill explicitly says that you have to roll when you want to perform a block when you are prone and not when you want to declare any action that includes a block.

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Ardonite



Joined: Feb 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 14:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Javark wrote:


The first part has been countered with "if you don't use the Block action and you only use the movement part of the Blitz, it's normal that you don't roll the check. If you do decide to use the Block part of the Blitz, though, the second part of the Jump Up rule kicks in".


so my response to that would be that, it seems hes trying to say you would only roll once you actually attempt the block action. in this case you would never roll, because before you attempt the block action you will always have stood up, thereby negating any reason to roll to stand up. if they have admitted that a blitz with no block wouldn't trigger it, then it seems that they have understood that a move action is taking place in the blitz action. as with a blitz you must always declare a target, even if you dont intend to hit them, there is no way to distinguish whether or not a player will use the block action until they actually do, at which point they will be standing, rendering jump up unnecessary. When Blitzing from prone, you are not as the rule says, Jumping up to block an opponent, you are standing up from prone, using a move action as desired, which may then be interrupted at any point by a block action against a pre declared target.
Javark



Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2024 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree. Still "but you are using the Block part of the Blitz, and Block requires the check" is the point where the discussion has reached a stale point. I really need somebody writing explicitly that Blitz is excluded by that rule, otherwise 11 league players and the "referee" will keep nerfing Jump Up...

I really wish to see this FAQ updated: https://www.warhammer-community.com/blood-bowl-downloads/


Last edited by Javark on Jan 05, 2024 - 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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