63 coaches online • Server time: 16:41
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post RNG speculationsgoto Post Throw Team Mate Land...goto Post NBFL Season 32: The ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
El_Jairo



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey there Blood Bowl Coaches!

Over here we have the current guide to starting Vampire Rosters.
https://fumbbl.com/help:BB20VampireSetUp

I do think that these are a good starting point but I want to have a discussion here to come up with better variations.

Variation 1: Standard Build
The one given with 3 TRR and 5 Vampires isn't bad, but I feel is the more daring version. Yes Blood Lust isn't as bad, but being able to use multiple TRR's makes me feel that the 4 TRR should be regarded as a standard as well. Since TRR can't die, it's more newer coach friendly.

So the basic proposed is:
2 Thrower
2 Blitzer
1 Runner
7 Thralls
3 TRR
I would propose to drop one Blitzer for 1 extra Thrall and one TRR, which leaves you with 10k spare for Dedicated fans.

2 Thrower
1 Blitzer
1 Runner
8 Thralls
4 TRR
+1 Dedicated Fans.

I also have the ultimate diversity starting build, which is my favorite, as the Vargheist is a good Big Guy to help the team out.

1 Vargheist
1 Thrower
1 Blitzer
1 Runner
7 Thralls
4 TRR
+1 Dedicated Fans.
Although this roster is only starting with 11 players, the first games might be a little more challenging, yet you have the advantage of having some removal skills with Claws-Frenzy.

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249
El_Jairo



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Variation 2: Reserves Build

1 Vampire Blitzer
1 Vampire Thrower
1 Vampire Runner
10 Thralls
4 x Re-rolls
+20k for Dedicated Fans or Towards Apothecary.

[EDIT] When I calculated the cost for this roster, you actually have 40k Spare. So you could have 3 Thralls on the Bench, or have +2 Dedicated fans and 20k in Treasury towards the Apothecary [/EDIT]

This is a more 'conservative' roster, you are starting with 13 players, and only 3 Vampires. So the removals by failed Bloodlust rolls should be significantly reduced.

Yet you are only running 3 Vampires, of which one only has ST3.

Personally I'm not a fan, as the strength of the Vampires isn't used to the maximum. I would switch the Runner to a Thrower, you loose the speed but you are increasing your Strength advantage.

My reason to play Vampires, is to take advantage of the Gaze en beautiful stats that the Vampires have, so I wouldn't want to start with as little as possible Vampires, but still a valid build.

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249


Last edited by El_Jairo on %b %10, %2023 - %16:%Oct; edited 2 times in total
El_Jairo



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 16:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Variation 3 Savage Build

1 Vargheist
2 Vampire Blitzers
1 Vampire Thrower
2 Vampire Runners
5 Thralls
2 x Re-rolls
Total 1000k

Giving you just 11 mens, 6 Vampires with 2 TRR is just suicidal. Imagine that you need to activate all 6 Vampires that is at least one failed BL and possibly one Thrall less. The scenario that by the second half there are not enough Thralls left to keep your Vampires running is quite plausible.

My solution would be to cut one Runner for a Thrall and one TRR.

1 Vargheist
1 Thrower
2 Blitzer
1 Runner
6 Thralls
3 TRR
You are still limited to 11 mens, but at least you have a more Thralls than Vampires on the Pitch and the extra TRR can go a long way.

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249


Last edited by El_Jairo on %b %10, %2023 - %16:%Oct; edited 1 time in total
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 16:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Been having the most success stating with
1 Varg
2 Thrower
1 runner
7 thrall
4x reroll
Total 990k (so 1 DF)
Then you get another thrall ASAP, then either APO or another runner next.

I don't like the blitzers that much until you have some pro or 5x rerolls to make up for the bloodlust 3+.
El_Jairo



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Variation 4 "4 teh Lulz"

1 Vargheist
2 Vampire Blitzers
2 Vampire Throwers
2 Vampire Runners
5 Thralls
0 x Re-rolls
+1 Dedicated Fans.

To be complete I will also review the 4th Variation. Which is strictly reserved for Masochist or Blood Bowl Gods. Having no basic skills, 7 players that want to eat your own players and 0 (ZERO) Team Re-Rolls, it is just asking for turn-overs and/or Thrall consumption. Having only 11 mens to start with, the chances are slim that you will be starting with 11 in the second half.

I have no alternative for this. As I think you should always start with at least 3 TRRs on Vampires, in my mind I would never start a league with this kind of roster.

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249
El_Jairo



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Carthage wrote:
Been having the most success stating with
1 Varg
2 Thrower
1 runner
7 thrall
4x reroll
Total 990k (so 1 DF)
Then you get another thrall ASAP, then either APO or another runner next.

I don't like the blitzers that much until you have some pro or 5x rerolls to make up for the bloodlust 3+.


I do like this roster, I would agree that you need more Thralls ASAP. I do like the Blitzers, to do the blitzing and blocking, as they have a skill that reduces that risk for a Turnover on a Blitz. Every team needs a dedicated blitzer and it would them to get to Block faster. But I'm not against postponing his purchase, depending on your league a second Runner might make more sense than a Blitzer Vampire.

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

i obviously started my team as a meme (6 legacy vampires + 1 re-roll)

but despite that, i don't actually think you NEED the 4th re-roll to start. i'd go with

blitzer
2 thrower
2 runner
7 thralls
3 re-roll
1 DF
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 19:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Carthage wrote:
Been having the most success stating with
1 Varg
2 Thrower
1 runner
7 thrall
4x reroll
Total 990k (so 1 DF)


This is what I started with as well. Don't regret it. Obviously having 0 bench is bad, but you can't have everything
I feel you probably want to choose Blitzer(s) OR Varg, because that determines who does the Blitzing and minimises BL3+

2x Throwers = very important. I'd delete any build that doesn't have them


So, I'd suggest either the build above from Carthage,
Or drop 1x Varg for 1x Blitzer + 1x Thrall
knine



Joined: Apr 12, 2020

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

The longer a Vamp team is on the field, the more prone it is to a numbers imbalance vs the other team - particularly in the early days. For me, that means having two runners to get that stretch TD when it all falls apart. The two runners also give you an end-around play for that stretch HG on an unsuspecting back corner of a cage. And, a passer is soooo good to have. Been working a treat for my vamp team in SWL.

Next point of discussion: Pro or Block, or something else as the first skill? I went with Pro on both runners.
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2023 - 22:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Could make an argument for dodge on the runners. Ball retrievers on defense.

I'd agree every build should start with 2 throwers and a minimum of 2 rerolls and blitzer/vargheist feels like pick 1 only for starting builds.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2023 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I think if you have less than 4 RR or more than 4 vamps then pro is more attractive... probably not still more attractive than block though.
Block on the S4 guys first imo then probably pro, dodge on the runners first then MA9 if you can be patient. Getting a one turn threat on a team that historically struggles on offense is pretty nice, just skip the offensive phase entirely and play to their strong defense.
El_Jairo



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2023 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Carthage wrote:
I think if you have less than 4 RR or more than 4 vamps then pro is more attractive... probably not still more attractive than block though.
Block on the S4 guys first imo then probably pro, dodge on the runners first then MA9 if you can be patient. Getting a one turn threat on a team that historically struggles on offense is pretty nice, just skip the offensive phase entirely and play to their strong defense.


Ooh, I really like this proposition of circumventing the weak part of the team, by getting to MA9. I don't know how reliable it is, I played Skaven in the WC and didn't manage one OTT, because ball scatter, bad dice. So I'm not as convinced that your build should include the OTT.

I am old fashioned in the belief that Vampires should get core skills: Block, Dodge, Pro and Guard.
Thralls can pick Wrestle before they die.

My ideal build would be:
Thrower 1: Leader, Dodge, Block, Pro
Thrower 2: Dodge, Block, Pro or Side-Step
Vargheist: MB, Block, Guard, Stand Firm
Blitzer 1: Block, Guard, Dodge, Pro
Blitzer 2: Block, Tackle, MB, Dodge, Pro
Runner 1-2: Dodge, Pro, Block, Side-Step

Thralls: Wrestle, Tackle and maybe one with Kick, now that Vampires have enough MA to take maximum advantage of the Blitz!

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249
Bebop2Hands



Joined: Jun 27, 2023

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2023 - 09:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that a thrower will (almost) always be better than a blitzer, so rather 2 thrower instead of 1+1.

Without having played many matches, I agree with Carthage pretty much.
- 1 runner is essential (MA8 was missing on the old team)
- 2 throwers is very good (stregth & BL2+)
- varg (gives you some punch that migth counterweigh the thrall tax)
- rest thralls & RRs
Decksign



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2023 - 11:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally, I went for this version, all rounder for versatility, resilience and scaling potential :

Vargheist
1 thrower, runner, blitzer
8 thralls
3RR
3DF

You get every positional, you don't have too many bloodlust, you have a bench because you will suffer from attrition, 3 rerolls are functional and dedicated fans to buy extra players quicker.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2023 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

MA9 on the runner, besides giving the option for a 1 turn score on turn 8/16 also means that any hole you create with gaze or blitzes gets maximally exploited, all it takes is getting the ball barely pass the line of scrimmage (pretty easy with Ag2, PA2 throwers) then they can score. And since they're your dedicated scorers, you can get it in just a few games.

Also, can someone explain the appeal of the blitzer to me? All I see is just a worse thrower, not sure why you'd ever want to take it over the thrower or a vargeist unless you are in a 1000TV tournament with no skill buys?
Thrower has all the same stats and skill access as the blitzer, but with also passing, PA2+ and 16% better negatrait. And all the blitzer has is Juggernaut to offset that. And the first skill you want on those pieces is block anyways which doesn't synergize with Juggernaut.
The Vargeist is a much better blitzer a majority of the time. Typically the blitz should be one of the last actions you take in a turn, especially on vampires that can use hypno gaze to set up a better blitz. That means the better anti-turnover of juggernaut vs the varg's loner is a lot less relevant. S5 frenzy is going to result in a lot more knockdowns than ST4 juggernaut. The varg is also better in a brawl at S5, AV10 and claw. So I don't really agree with the blitzer being a better blitzer than the vargeist.
Not saying you never ever take the blitzer, i think once the team is skilled up a good amount with pro, blodge, etc you probably should take them, but I don't see their appeal at low TV.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic