theopacman
Joined: Jan 26, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 23, 2005 - 03:13 |
 
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Very true Oz
I am extremely dissapointed that the regional - qpool cap is too low, but I still believe that the SWL is by far the best BB league i have participated in either online or face to face. We will get over it play on and in no time at all be complaining about something totally different next season  |
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Fool
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 23, 2005 - 03:21 |
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How/when will we know which division our teams are being placed in?
How do I state my case for conference/premier more so than i already have?
I will play on... just bummed out. I do enjoy the community a great deal. I was just excited to play the teams I've been working on.
-fool
ps, at least i got a chance to thrash Snorri's elforcs. hehe  |
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Covertfun
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 23, 2005 - 03:39 |
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WELL!
It's all happening! dammit, if only i could've been in on that meeting
a couple of thoughts, I'll do my best to make them readable, as this may yet blow out to a huge post.
First up: The game system Bloodbowl is slightly biased in favour of bashy teams. Mathematically, i mean. It is much easier to sustain a high-av team that harms first, plays the ball later. Don't get me wrong, Ag4 is a huge benefit, but a basher does everything on two dice, and it's no good having Ag4 if you are stunned or off the pitch.
That said, the only model of long-term sustainability is the teams on fumbbl, and by definition, I can't make a judgement about "long-term" using the new (for example) fan factor rules, which may well benefit scorers, since you now can't lose FF if you win on TDs.
You can still lose players, though, and attrition is not just a tactic during a match, it's a force that mauls scoring teams once they achieve a certain bind. Losing your best player always sucks, but that never kills a team. What is worse than losing your best player is losing two players who sit in the middle of your SPP spread.
An elf team -for example - playing in big leagues, and must try to win to keep the money flowing in, but if their fifth and fourth best players are put into retirement, all of a sudden, the TR doesn't match the on-field performance, and it is a very tricky proposition to ignore your good players while you try to skill up rookies. It's easy if you don't care about the outcome of the match, but when a squad of Saurus are pressing you against the sidelines and a single fumble will result in most of your team being blocked, you don't risk it with a rookie. And the SPP gap widens.
All this we know. It is just by way of demonstrating that it is not something peculiar to the swl that bashy teams dominate over time; it is a factor built in to the game itself.
Secondly: Team Rating. a TR cap over 100 disadvantages elves and humans, while giving advantage to dwarves and say lizardmen. Teams that score easily are supposed to gain TR more quickly than teams that don't. Coming out of Qpool, a TR 150 elf team will either have played less or culled more than a dwarf team. This is ok, but the higher the TR cap, the greater the disparity in games played between the two teams.
Third: Fouling. I'm all for no fouling in Qpool! I know this seems hypocrisy. And basically, it is. But, if my actions highlighted the bias toward bashing, that's ideal. However, as long as there are dwarves, there needs to be fouling.
Perhaps this is something that only really applies to me, and i can believe that would be the case, but after the Reagents were heart-breakingly worn away i cottoned on to what many others already had - that the game is easier/more fun/less annoying if you bash. But now, at the extended height of my schadenfreudal Foul-gasm, I am told that the very league that destroyed my favourite high elf team and broke my heart has changed its rules to stop me achieving the vengeful dominance i crave - nay yearn for. That's right yea-urn for.
Fourth: just a quick rebuttal: Rennigeb suggests that team culling/cuts could be on skills gained instead of TR. How about on total skills on the roster, excluding negatraits? That way, an elf team with 5 Block Linos, 5 Dodge Linos and a rookie doesn't have to cull more than a dwarf team with guard on 8 players and block on a runner.  caught you out on that one, but someone had to. 
Fifth and last: foolwholaughsatdeath: I feel for you man. If the fouling restrictions render the Wicker Men unplayable, I'll be naively placing my faith in the new system, and starting a TR 100 fragile team of some description. If that happens, your elves (and only your elves) will have at least one gap in the divs to apply for. Before culling.
Parting shot: I think gobbos should be listed as fragile. I know they are sneaky hardcore little gits, but perhaps they are not as tough as amazons? Even with their two Big guys, i'm not sure that they quite have the same durability as zons or dark elves, given that no player on a gob team gets block on a normal skill roll.
I promise not to foul in Qpool again I was a big old meanie when i did, and it would possibly have been nicer to let those teams get to the divisions before experiencing the inexorable punishment of playing against the odds time after time after time. Speaking of mean, over n repetitions, the mean approaches the expected value. Tell GW to stick THAT up their BBRC.
*Covertfun puffs and pants, wiping his brow before retiring briefly* |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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Mar 23, 2005 - 03:56 |
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| Covertfun wrote: | | I think gobbos should be listed as fragile. |
I agree entirely. Gobbo teams go squash very easily. A little bit of block, tackle & mighty blow and all the chainsaws in the world aren't going to help. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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Snorri
Joined: Jun 07, 2004
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Mar 23, 2005 - 04:48 |
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Actually, I sorted the group classifications according to brutality (how much damage they can cause) rather than fragility (primarily av based - extreme example, consider khemri who have more than half their team with av7). Bashy/Medium/Soft are probably a better description. This was because the problem was with throwing fragile teams into a div (like chunky's wussbags and chrode's tenebrae) into a division that didn't necessarily have high armour, but did alot of damage to the elves game after game.
Note this lets us look at a div and say, yep - thats a bashy div...make sure we dont throw a single "fragile" (not necessarily "soft") team in there. So yes, the fragility of a team is still considered when it comes to arranging groups, but I believe in its proper perspective!
May be subject to change, but I think this works for the moment. |
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BeefyGoodness
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
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Mar 23, 2005 - 05:26 |
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Ok, time I added my 2 cents.
Firstly I appreciate effort on behalf of the admins as they have the thankless job of taking on all the "whinging" personally.
Problems as I see it:
1. The amount of high AV bashy teams in the league.
2. The lack of any incentive to play a low av team other than creativity.
3. The length of the league - I know there is a lot more variation at a RL BB tourney.
4. The methods used to try to balance these issues, as it raises many members eyebrows.
Now, the first question to be asked here is why are they there? Cos they are the least frustrating, most reliable teams in terms of development. Why doesn't everyone play just play bashers?
Answer - Because it is either discouraged or not allowed.
Well if this is going to be the case then there better be some incentive to play other teams bettern'nt there?
Sadly to date this hasn't been true.
Other coaches have just been improvising (e.g. the wickermen) which I think is fabulous.
Option a) Let everybody play bashers.
Option b) Hamstring bashers/give handicaps to others.
Surely just limiting the amount of bashers is just going to make premier a little pile of the bash teams, as well as ensuring that those teams will NEVER be retired. To me this is not the answer.
I agree with sparticus that this game is called BLOOD BOWL, but to me its an interesting strategy game. So over the long term league the game has changed to be purely a kill em all game, thus strategies/teams change.
Looking at Covert's post you can see the exact emotional response to these harsh lessons learnt on the pitch. Honestly I am not far from the same - The next team I take in this league, if it isn't changed significantly, will revolve around killing other teams as it is the only way to ensure a stay at the top (and to me it sounds sad).
I am sure that coaches can find the fun games they want to play in R.
I am of the opinion that the methods listed for season 9 will not work because of the reasons I have stated above, the only thing that will happen (long term) is a tiering of sorts. |
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ozjesting
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Mar 23, 2005 - 05:41 |
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Just for clarifications sake (where possible). To foolwholaughsatdeath...my first thought is that your handle needs culling I don't know when rough-cuts of Season 9 division placement will happen. But NOW is the time to send an email to swladmin@hotmail.com (if I have that address incorrect it should be on the group page) explaing why your Elf team should be Conference worthy. That email is for all OFFICIAL letters. While you indeed made your point in this forum the admins prefer official mail.
IMPORTANT POINT! TR "Caps" are for START of Season only! START..as in AT THE BEGINNING. At the end of Game 1 you may be 50 points over if such is your luck. Caps will then be relooked at and perhaps revised before the start of Season 10...then team will have to cull as needed.
(Except Qpool of course...where a team may never START a game at a TR of greater than 150)
To covert (whom I shall refrain from quoting for space) (and whom I also no longer "Booooooo!")
To your points as I see them
1. Fully agree that BB caters to the bash. No way around it it is "Blood" Bowl Elves can bring their "game" if they want to take the risk...but I believe a system designed to at least give the pointy ears SOME hope is well worth trying.
2: TR Cap: I also agree that there are discrepencies with TR (thus the new TV system being trialed in Vault rules) but until THAT system is in there is NO easily administered way to hold the various divisions in check. With proper input from informed voices such as yourself I am sure the admins will find the numbers that suit best. 200/150 is just a starting point...plenty of chance to restructure with proper info over the coming seasons.
3. Fouling: As far as I understand it this is simply an "etiquette" measure that applies to Qpool ONLY! The divisions will again compete for the Gold and Silver (and Bronze?) Boots...I expect the fouling to continue unabated at all levels of div play and wish all DPs an excellent season.
Again...It is all well and good to gripe a bit about how this affects YOU and YOUR teams. But I would ask everyone to take a step back and look at the big picture. If you think you have an idea that should be considered for the good of ALL than please write it down! Clay and Co are good...but they are far from genius And also keep in mind the work that goes in behind the scenes to keep all this running "smoothly" We all could have been feasting on Chunkathon instead of conspiring to ruin your teams
And as a quick response to Beefy and others who are sugesting that racial restrictions simply protects the few "bash" coaches. This may indeed be the case...but I for one doubt it. I expect to see "middle" and/or "fragile"
teams win a heap of games and thus the bash teams will start to relagate. Once relagated THEY will have to cull and thus begins the wane. I think with a more even spread of races it puts a premium back on wins and TDs and not just trying to wipe out a side. I also think peope put WAY too much emphasis on that "possibility" too. Truth is injuries are a bit capricious...thus is dice..and if a lot of you REALLY want my opinion (espicially you coaches of AV 7 teams) I think most of you play it all wrong. There is an art to survivial with an Elf squad and all the other "fragile" teams that I just don't see embraced here often enough...this not the place for a master class...but take note...it is often YOUR fault they die...not a "bashy" team. (PS: ozjesting is the #2 High Elf coach in the world according to NAF (and current holder of the MOAB trophey with said HEs ...I only play Chaos here due to earlier race restrictions)
Also note..DON'T CULL TEAMS YET! Wait and see what pans out before you do anything drastic! There are some race issues to sort, divs to fill, cross-overs to Veterans League, and I think we will need to hold a fund raiser for Chunky04 to get him a new computer...so stay cool, play well and start baking those lamingtons! |
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Say GO AWAY to CuddleBunny! |
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Drokmar
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 23, 2005 - 06:45 |
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In Resposnse to Covert's 2nd point, Perhaps if we intend to make sure we have the Same number of each team type, why not include a Different Cap for Each? Entering the lower league with a TR 150 team for Dwarfs, a 160 team for Middle Teams, and perhaps 170 for Weak teams. Then in the Higher it can be Like 185 for Bashy, 200 for Middle and 225 for Weaker teams. This will sort itself out as the Weaker teams start to loose players as the Bashy teams begin to wear them Down
Not sure what you'll think, but it could work, maybe.
Kath |
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Uncle_Smed
Joined: May 22, 2004
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Mar 30, 2005 - 03:22 |
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I still feel TR caps are NOT the answer. As many coaches are quick to point out, different teams are better at different rating levels.
I understand that the TR caps are for the START of the season only Tommy, but looking at some of the teams coming out of Chunkathon (mainly the elven teams who've built up over the month to fill the gap of Elven teams in the league), when they have to cull down to 180 for conferences or 150 for regionals, they're going to have 11 at best and fewer at worst.
I'd like to point out now that it's been commented "Having 11 for an elf team on the starting roster is HUGE!"
Frankly this is a stupid thing to say, and a downright dangerous way to think.
No "bashy" team would be saying similar. So if it's not good enough for one type of team to start with 11, why is it another?
There are myriad arguments, but at the end of the day I'll back a team with 2 or 3 reserves against a team with 0. And 9 times out of 10 I'll be right.
It takes a lot of luck to be able to outplay someone with players down on your roster.
And not always is that luck present.
Of late the game of Bloodbowl has taken a serious bent towards bashing, as Covert points out. He's just talking mathematically and he touches on the subject of attrition but not in any depth.
Let's look at it a bit closer. Ageing, this affects everyone equally, just some players sooner than others. The other means of attrition, casualties. It's now twice as likely that you'll get a niggle as it used to be. This is fine if your team doesn't suffer that many casualties. But for those with moderate/low AV who cop a pounding but still "win" the game, it's quite detrimental.
We can't change that, but we can take it into consideration.
Those two factors above (teams having to cull down to 10-11 to be able to commence the season - teams which should be being encouraged into the conferences because of a lack of their numbers, and the increased attrition due to ageing/double the niggles) I don't feel are being properly accounted for.
A TR cap will not work to equalize things across a conference. The TR cap, in fact, merely hurts teams with expensive players who start with no or few skills. (Yes, I'm talking about elves, pretty much all elves.) Their stat line helps, but the reality is you're more likely to fail that 1 in 6 chance at dodging than the 1 in 36 double skulls and it's just as detrimental to your team.
Ok, enough criticism time for some constructive.
I think that chunky's proposal of a season limit on teams has the most merit. It will promote the Veteran's League (which the admins have said they wanted to do), it will keep teams equal in the long term (there's only going to be so far and so long they can go once out of Qpool before moving to the Veteran's League), it means every game suddenly counts (Sure you can't come top 2 in your region/conference THIS season, but you want the best possible team going in next time so you want SPPs and to WIN!) and it could mean you'll see a greater variety in team types (You don't care as much if your team survives when you know they're going to be moving onto Vet's League in X number of seasons so you might just play as Flings, Elves, Zons etc).
The way it could work is very similar to the current proposal, seperate out conferences/regionals/premier as a three tier system. It works, it's nice and it gives teams a chance.
Sort the conferences and regionals based solely on TR (perhaps even using TS in the equation somehow, but eh, it's mostly BS), big teams will play big teams.. smaller teams will play against smaller teams. Winners will get larger, losers get smaller and the natural order will sort things out.
Top 2 from EACH conference get the offer to move up to Premier at Season's end. If they accept, good-o. If not, the Premier team is still relegated, and the highest TR team from the Conferences is moved up into their place. (Premier is meant to be the best of the best, regardless of prior record so let's make them the best.)
Top 2 from EACH region get the offer to move up into the conferences, if they accept, they have locked in spots in the Conferences. If not, their choice. Their waste. They may end up there anyway.
Once the offered spots are sorted out, every remaining team is sorted out by TR and then put into conference/region in descending order.
It's equitable, and it rewards consistent performance. It also means that if you have a bad game and lose a couple players, you know you'll be going somewhere where your team can recuperate for a season.
After that, you set your Season limit and keep track of it the way we do to keep track of who's in what division. Every season a team remains in Premier/Conference/Regional they accumulate a season. When their total seasons reach X (Not sure what a good number is, was thinking 6 or 7 with the 3 tier system, gives you time to get up there and give things a good go) then they are asked to leave the league and either enter into Veteran's League or move to Unranked or *gasp* get retired.
Another comment thrown my way was "We didn't want to make the old teams leave" and "They've put in a lot of fluff effort" .. that fluff won't stop, it will simply move arena to the Veteran's League. (Which is rather dead at the moment, but I hear there's plans once it gets a few more teams, so how about we provide those few more teams?). As far as making them leave, it's a choice.. either remove them from the league or lose a lot of new coaches who come in to find all these established teams sitting at the top of the heap and never moving.
Now, I'm not even talking about counting their previous seasons. I want this to be equal, so ALL teams would count Season 9 as their 1st season regardless of how many prior seasons they'd been in for. Can't ask for fairer than that can you?
Now... the big one.. the incentive for teams in Premier. To award consistent performance in the division which represents the best of the best of the SWL... you win premier, you get your next season free. it doesn't count towards your season limit,so if you're down to your last fling of the dice and you take out the big prize, you're around next season too. Everyone loves a winner and the SWL fans are no different. Unless you win a lot.. or cheat.. in which case they hate you.
I've put a decent amount of thought into this idea, and it has a lot of merit. And to those who deem me a "troublemaker", please get your head out from under the rock. I may play a mean game of Bowl, I may argue against many things, but I do so out of a desire to see the BEST possible improvements and systems be brought in. Ones which have been thought about and tested out and looked at from several angles.
So have a look at this idea, criticise if you must, but try to give an alternative if you do. |
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ozjesting
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Mar 30, 2005 - 04:24 |
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Ok Smed (and a troublemaker with good intentions is still a troublemaker ) (PS /me has listened to Smed opine for years as both a TT player and now FUMBBL...and has the greatest respect for him)
Quick clarification so as not to spread false acounts...TR cap is thus: Premier = None, Conference = 200 Regionial = 150...and a reminder that is a STARTING cap...after game 1 you may be over and keep growing!
I agree though a TR cap is not the end all of ideas to "balance" the league...and am coming to terms with the descrepincies various races face in dealing with it. But I can't see a way aroud it in the short term. While I agre that a "Team Season Cap" may have merits here are my problems with it so far.
1. It will be AGES before it sorts anything. We are only in Season 9...with the 6-7 season cap starting now as you suggest you are talking almost the full length of the SWL so far...and that has been over a year in the making! In fact even if you enforced that season cap with no clause I think the only teams it would affect would be Blue Mt Dragons and Carlton United. The Black Crowes are about to commence their 7th season so maybe them too. (and apoligies to any other "historical" team I may have overlooked)
2. Last season blues: What of the teams who face a last season with no hope of winning a division? Or same team starts with a chance but by game 3 is done...a long 4 weeks remain with no reason to play. Good and fair coaches would hopefully build for Vets league...but could also become a death machine on a rampage. There is also the possibility a team could play 7 seasons without ever getting that huge and could quite happily keep on trying.
I agree a logjam at the top is a dis-incentive for new coaches...I also support a bigger turnover in Premier...I would like to see top 3 stay in and 5 go down...bringing up top 2 from each conference and a "wildcard" Either the top placed 3rd from one of the conferences or one of the regional winners if they have leaped up to a competive level.
But in saying that I see the other problem...making room for teams moving down. THAT is where the TR cap works in my opinion. Forceing them to cull will be the incentive to stay in touch TR wise OR packing it in for Vets league and starting again.
Th other issue is of course keping a system in place that alows a place for the "new" teams. With all the largenes being developed it can be quite hard to get a new team involved. I would still like to see a way to bring them up in tournement play as opposed to qpool. I also think the SWL in tourny mode should reward coaches who play their matches PERIOD! Not just coaches who can play heaps more than others (but this could just be the babies talking )
I also have a half formed idea for "race camps" in a bid to get all races involved...but not quite sure what I am on about yet
A lot of this wll one day (I hope) be unnecesary from a "rules" point of view. I think a concentrated efort to build the "community" will be better for all of us in the long run. If we just understand when we should get a new team...go back to the bottom and try again...play new and interesting races, don't beat the crap out of people for the hell of it...and just have a great time playing games and writing match reports for the histroy of it all. As Alfred Butts (Scrabble creator) said..."I played Scrabble every night with my wife...and we never kept score." (Of course my guess is she was Whipping him!)
Heres to Season 9 and beyond! |
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Say GO AWAY to CuddleBunny! |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 30, 2005 - 06:03 |
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Just a couple of random thoughts. It is possible to stay up without slaughtering... my lizards only have 113 cas for in 64 games, and -18 cas difference at that. A bit of luck on skill rolls does help, without my ag 4 skinks, I would never have managed it. That does make me wonder though, who would decide whether a race is hard/medium/soft, considering the other premier lizards (warlizards) have 126 cas (and +18 diff) in 48 games.
I would be quite upset if I had to retire Thshltraeeay unhurt due to introduced tr restrictions though (as I'm sure clay wouldn't want to fire blax, or beefy that disgusting catcher, diver derrick). |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Mar 30, 2005 - 13:45 |
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All
I have been away and adding in the crash, I havent posted since many ideas have been tabled.
In general, i think the vigour in which people have debated is why this league is THE BEST in fumbbl - many dedicated players all with good ideas and a passion. The rules in this regard are of a lesser extent when compared to the SWL Community.
In regards to the rules, ozjesting has made many counterpoints and I happen to agree with them all... the ideas raised by others were discussed by the admins incl team duration limits, cap variations, TR sorting between seasons etc etc.
The discussion was long (3.5 hrs solid) and we deliberated for a fair length of time. So in short, the rules werent something I alone thought up over lunch and implemented, many ideas and views and counter views went into the mix... the end result is what u see today. Some of my ideas did not get up, Oz mentions teams starting in tourney play at TR100 (ie make the QPool useless). This is was what I wanted as well, but I was in a minority on that one.
I am a big pusher of TR caps (Cut Throat League anyone ) and I actually wanted them tighter... so you can thank others for saving you more culling
The point is that the rules for Season 9 were discussed by the admin committee and agreed... all admins have signed off given the debate that was had. We werent unanimous in our discussions, but that is what debate is for.
Now given the ideas presented in these forums, we may implement those down the track. As Ozjesting says, we aren't geniuses and we always welcome new ideas, but as for Season 9, that is all she wrote....
In regards to culling etc, also heed Oz's advice - DON'T DO IT YET! Also a tip, dont cull all your rookies and leave yourself with 9-11 stars. Say "bye bye" to that 136spp catcher (I will miss you Blax  ) and say hello to that 3 spp lineman!
Also, if you have rerolls or other niceties, dont forget to cull those too... you dont need 6 rerolls in a TR150 environment... (well its nice, but not a necessity!)
And re teams... we need to cull about 8 bashy teams! Thats right! 8!! If you are a bashy coach and have a nice Elf team in QPool, you will probably be "requested" to play the elves. Similarly, if you tire of grinding your way up the field and rendering your opponent from limb to limb and yearn to throw long bombs, well please apply ASAP!
Dont forget too though that some middle races are lightly represented. Humans, Rotters, Necros, Skaven etc are there as well...
We admins will make the racial status more readily apparent on the SWL Main Page soon...
Glad to see we survived the crash
Clay |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Mar 30, 2005 - 15:37 |
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<b>LEAGUE POSITIONS AND RACIAL RESTRICTIONS (2nd Draft)</b>
OK, if you have a look at the SWL Main Page, you will see a Racial Restrictions Table. You will note that we have some shuffling to do to make racial caps...
As a side note, I am still toying with the Dragons and may still swap them with my Donuts, so the "middle" range cull could be me
But the Bashy Div still has some fat... If you're in that category, and you want to make a switch, let us know asap via the swladmin@hotmail.com
Also, a 2nd draft of the Conf/Reg placings has been put up. Take note! If you are a "2" you need to consider culling to TR200. All "3's" need to go down to TR150! There are some significant culls to make, and if you feel that your team will become unplayable, then you can submit a new TR100 team and send the old team (unculled) to the Veterans League.
Reminder though, these are still DRAFT and any movement affects racial balance etc etc... therefore, we consider the whole process as iterative...
Secondly, Chunkathon is still up and running and will be until we get the lineups settled. Feel free to continue to play games in order to assist you in future cullings by getting cash etc etc.
Any questions etc, please send emails!
[edit] All teams scored as "666" are considered "dead" as far as SWL is concerned. They can be moved to Veterans League, but no matter what you do with them, can you take them off the SWL Main Page by selecting "Leave" thanks. |
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Fool
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
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Mar 30, 2005 - 22:05 |
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Hello,
I see that my team "SWL Losers" has been placed as a "2" on the group page. They are currently at 225 tr... when should I cull them down to 200? Now? or wait for official word? |
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andycapp
Joined: May 26, 2004
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Mar 31, 2005 - 01:29 |
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| foolwholaughsatdeath wrote: | Hello,
I see that my team "SWL Losers" has been placed as a "2" on the group page. They are currently at 225 tr... when should I cull them down to 200? Now? or wait for official word? |
Hey Fool and everyone,
As has been suggested to me, and mentioned by oz earlier, don't cull just yet. Just a couple more days of the Chunkathon to be played, but come Monday (I assume), that's when Season 9 will commence, and that's when I'll be culling DaWall (tm) down a bit
I can't readily swap my teams for this season, because my current choices are Orc and Dwarf ! lol.
Though I have Skaven for the start of QPool, and also a brand new shiny High Elf team waiting in the wings ...
Good luck to all in Season 9.
cheers, andycapp |
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