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2014-01-10 01:41:30
10 votes, rating 3
10 votes, rating 3
Cpomb. Bandwagons. Contribution.
My tuppence, seeing as this stuff still hasn't stopped.
It seems to me that there is no real proof that CPOMB teams win any more than other races. Yet there is still stigma about them? I would think it is something to do with the ease with which teams are created. As I see it the reason people dislike CPOMBers is primarily because they have an easier time of the metagame. It is easier for them to build teams.
An elf team relies primarily on two controllable sources of SPP to grow as a team: passes and touchdowns. Since passes are generally done only when in safety or in dangerous situations,they are not a huge source of income. Elf teams have to rely on scoring touchdowns to progress as a team. They might gain a few extra SPPs here and there, but not noticeably more than the ag3 races.
A bash team however, and I include those without claw, have strength access. This favours a third way of earning SPP: casualties. This is more or less independent of actually winning. A team who ignores the ball completely will likely score more cas than a team who tries to win. Winning becomes irrelevant to the team's development. They are an easy team to build into a monster. All this is only compounded by the fact that as well as being better at building, they are better at destroying too.
I don't actually think anything should be changed with regards to CPOMB itself. It is unpopular rather than broken, just as claw/RSC was in LRB4. I guess there was something similar before that. The main difference is that claw/rsc needed luck with doubles rolls, and their players became more valuable to their coach. A CPOMB terror team is easy to build and that is what people dislike. If they become easier to kill, then much of the issue would be null.
My proposal is for a bounty system. When a player is killed, you can choose to put a bounty on that player's head. The team that kills the player gets a small sum (even if it is a CPOMBer team). It's fluffy and it adds to the game rather than takes away.
It seems to me that there is no real proof that CPOMB teams win any more than other races. Yet there is still stigma about them? I would think it is something to do with the ease with which teams are created. As I see it the reason people dislike CPOMBers is primarily because they have an easier time of the metagame. It is easier for them to build teams.
An elf team relies primarily on two controllable sources of SPP to grow as a team: passes and touchdowns. Since passes are generally done only when in safety or in dangerous situations,they are not a huge source of income. Elf teams have to rely on scoring touchdowns to progress as a team. They might gain a few extra SPPs here and there, but not noticeably more than the ag3 races.
A bash team however, and I include those without claw, have strength access. This favours a third way of earning SPP: casualties. This is more or less independent of actually winning. A team who ignores the ball completely will likely score more cas than a team who tries to win. Winning becomes irrelevant to the team's development. They are an easy team to build into a monster. All this is only compounded by the fact that as well as being better at building, they are better at destroying too.
I don't actually think anything should be changed with regards to CPOMB itself. It is unpopular rather than broken, just as claw/RSC was in LRB4. I guess there was something similar before that. The main difference is that claw/rsc needed luck with doubles rolls, and their players became more valuable to their coach. A CPOMB terror team is easy to build and that is what people dislike. If they become easier to kill, then much of the issue would be null.
My proposal is for a bounty system. When a player is killed, you can choose to put a bounty on that player's head. The team that kills the player gets a small sum (even if it is a CPOMBer team). It's fluffy and it adds to the game rather than takes away.
Comments
Posted by Chainsaw on 2014-01-10 02:12:07
I think you got the right point with the wrong reasoning.
Yes, they have a better time of the meta game - because, by virtue of killing more, they die less. The most deadly skillset in the game is all normal skills.
Other teams, especially in high attrition environments like box, cycle through players rapidly. It is much harder to build a team of skilled elves and keep it alive in box.
Really, though, the designers of BB didn't intend for 1000 game-old chaos to play 15 game-old teams. So it's a bit of a dilemma. Easy scheduling vs survive the bash minefield.
Yes, they have a better time of the meta game - because, by virtue of killing more, they die less. The most deadly skillset in the game is all normal skills.
Other teams, especially in high attrition environments like box, cycle through players rapidly. It is much harder to build a team of skilled elves and keep it alive in box.
Really, though, the designers of BB didn't intend for 1000 game-old chaos to play 15 game-old teams. So it's a bit of a dilemma. Easy scheduling vs survive the bash minefield.
Posted by awambawamb on 2014-01-10 02:24:16
+1 to what Chainsaw said. Probably the kids in the GW's BB control room are able to count only to 20.... 21, if naked and male.
Posted by Lorebass on 2014-01-10 04:44:10
20 1/2?
Posted by Beerox on 2014-01-10 06:15:10
They get to lay down. Nobody else does.
So the way to make them easier to kill is to make them stand up like everyone else has to.
So the way to make them easier to kill is to make them stand up like everyone else has to.
Posted by Raughri on 2014-01-10 08:44:52
Sorry to disagree but pile on is broken.
And it doesn't fit with the fluff.
And it doesn't fit with the fluff.
Posted by Qaz on 2014-01-10 10:22:49
Here you can read from Galak and Jervis about how they did indeed think of CRaP to e played in perpetual. It maybe does mention 1000s of games but it does mention new teams playing old teams.
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=475483#475483
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=475483#475483
Posted by Naru1981 on 2014-01-10 11:02:45
claw/RSC required doubles. was a rare ish combo.
even more rare was seeing more than 1 on a team. now however, you will often see a team with multi clawpomb.
it's not the win ratio that bothers people, it's the fact that you will more often than not lose your team due to the lame combo.
1 on a team is enough. 2 max.
but when playing vs 6/7 it gets silly
even more rare was seeing more than 1 on a team. now however, you will often see a team with multi clawpomb.
it's not the win ratio that bothers people, it's the fact that you will more often than not lose your team due to the lame combo.
1 on a team is enough. 2 max.
but when playing vs 6/7 it gets silly
Posted by Chainsaw on 2014-01-10 14:21:47
Raughri> pile on is broken and it doesn't fit with the fluff.
I somewhat agree it doesn't fit with the fluff.
I think pile on should be chosen before any rolls are made. Block with piling on? Yes or no? Then the mechanics are as-is, but you would be forced into it which means more of a tactical choice.
Qaz> they did indeed think of CRaP to be played in perpetual
You're just re-appropriating context to your own means there.
His context is a league with a few dozen coaches and some dropping out and new ones coming in. That's totally different to a play-5-times-a-day insta-match-anybody league like blackbox. And you know it, you're not dumb. You're just being obtuse.
I somewhat agree it doesn't fit with the fluff.
I think pile on should be chosen before any rolls are made. Block with piling on? Yes or no? Then the mechanics are as-is, but you would be forced into it which means more of a tactical choice.
Qaz> they did indeed think of CRaP to be played in perpetual
You're just re-appropriating context to your own means there.
His context is a league with a few dozen coaches and some dropping out and new ones coming in. That's totally different to a play-5-times-a-day insta-match-anybody league like blackbox. And you know it, you're not dumb. You're just being obtuse.
Posted by Loew on 2014-01-10 15:36:17
I somewhat disagree on two points:
1. for me the easier team building of the ClawPomb teams is only secondary, it is still the random dullness of playing vs a herp-derp-always-pile-awn team that annoys me. There is only so much that you can do when half of your team is off the field after the first few turns.. even when you play an agility team, more so when you play a non-claw basher team. Maybe it is different for top coaches, but I as an more average coach are mostly lost then, which means I waste an hour watching my guys get slaughtered - not by tactical brilliance, not by hilarious unusual dice, just by probability and a lost coin toss and maybe slightly above normal early knock down results by my opponent.
Sure, on the other hand, if the clawpomber fails to break armor in his first blocks, I have an advantage for a few turns, but then it is not because I played a good tactic, but because I was lucky...
2. Yes, it is annoying that the clawpomb player skill that fast - not so much because I would be jealous about the legend, but because it means that most clawpomber also have block, many tackle, and it's even not that rare to see clawpomber with jump up.
But I don't think it's the elves that can't keep up. Any elf performances well with just one or two skills - and those are still quite easy achievable. In my opinion, it is the other bashers, that suffered the most. Saurus, BoBs, Bull Centaurs, Flesh Golems...all those player that are hard to skill, need at least two skills to really shine and are now so much more easily knocked out and hurt.
1. for me the easier team building of the ClawPomb teams is only secondary, it is still the random dullness of playing vs a herp-derp-always-pile-awn team that annoys me. There is only so much that you can do when half of your team is off the field after the first few turns.. even when you play an agility team, more so when you play a non-claw basher team. Maybe it is different for top coaches, but I as an more average coach are mostly lost then, which means I waste an hour watching my guys get slaughtered - not by tactical brilliance, not by hilarious unusual dice, just by probability and a lost coin toss and maybe slightly above normal early knock down results by my opponent.
Sure, on the other hand, if the clawpomber fails to break armor in his first blocks, I have an advantage for a few turns, but then it is not because I played a good tactic, but because I was lucky...
2. Yes, it is annoying that the clawpomb player skill that fast - not so much because I would be jealous about the legend, but because it means that most clawpomber also have block, many tackle, and it's even not that rare to see clawpomber with jump up.
But I don't think it's the elves that can't keep up. Any elf performances well with just one or two skills - and those are still quite easy achievable. In my opinion, it is the other bashers, that suffered the most. Saurus, BoBs, Bull Centaurs, Flesh Golems...all those player that are hard to skill, need at least two skills to really shine and are now so much more easily knocked out and hurt.
Posted by bigGuy on 2014-01-10 17:11:50
Oh common. ClawPomb hurts so much, because ppl play with 11-12 players. They cannot afford to foul, and cannot recover if they loose 3+ after 1st half.
Posted by albinv on 2014-01-10 20:58:25
The stack is ok imho. The problem starts when people overdo it, thus creating a monocultural environment, dictating the pace and way the game is placed for other fumbblers.
On a sidenote they also spoil the game for those coaches who are kind of similiar to them, who enjoy the bashy game but cant allow themselves anymore to play it too the full extent. Since they dont want to be associated with the latest exploit of the actual ruleset.
So my personal stance on the matter would be pretty simple actually. Restrict ClawPOMBERs to 3-4 the most on a roster, done! (since ClawMB, when added overly, will probably also end in a "broken" roster, mutations should only be possible on a double for CDs and Chaos again, just as it was. There was no need to change it, Chaos and CDs did always good - even with mutations on doubles. So there was no need at all to change that rule! In fact its obviously it only created problems within the game mechanics.)
On a sidenote they also spoil the game for those coaches who are kind of similiar to them, who enjoy the bashy game but cant allow themselves anymore to play it too the full extent. Since they dont want to be associated with the latest exploit of the actual ruleset.
So my personal stance on the matter would be pretty simple actually. Restrict ClawPOMBERs to 3-4 the most on a roster, done! (since ClawMB, when added overly, will probably also end in a "broken" roster, mutations should only be possible on a double for CDs and Chaos again, just as it was. There was no need to change it, Chaos and CDs did always good - even with mutations on doubles. So there was no need at all to change that rule! In fact its obviously it only created problems within the game mechanics.)
Posted by MattDakka on 2014-01-10 21:01:15
@bigGuy: Yep but on the other hand if you bloat your roster with too many reserves you are likely to face more and/or more skilled clawpombers, and since you can't replace injured players during a half, but only at half time or when a TD is scored, reserves are not ever so useful.
It's not that simple, currently you have to play bashers, elves or undead teams in order to be quite competitive in the box, while this is not a tragedy in itself, it reduces the variety of the teams you face and makes for dull matches at medium/high TV most of times.
It's not that simple, currently you have to play bashers, elves or undead teams in order to be quite competitive in the box, while this is not a tragedy in itself, it reduces the variety of the teams you face and makes for dull matches at medium/high TV most of times.
Posted by albinv on 2014-01-10 21:13:46
I have only spectated the stack so far. So my numbers might be wrong (2-3 might be more sufficient).
Posted by RC on 2014-01-11 21:49:05
There is only one way to play certain teams these days . Get a Necro or CD team. Keep recycling players until they get the magical cl,mb,po combo. Keep blitzing with that combo until you meet another team with more clw,mb,po that kills your player.
Rinse repeat.
Rinse repeat.