FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Macavity

Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 21:22

/me regrets not burning it fast enough.....

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Hoodeddwarf

Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 21:46

This is a list of the lrb teams according to cas difference/game
Khemri +1.04
Dwarf +0.66
Orc +0.47
Ogre +0.42
Chaos Dwarf +0.36
Undead +0.35
Nurgle's Rotters +0.08
Chaos +0.06
Necromantic -0.05
Amazon -0.23
Norse -0.35
Human -0.36
Lizardmen -0.6
Dark Elf -0.61
High Elf -0.72
Skaven -0.98
Vampire -1.11
Elf -1.21
Wood Elf -1.29
Goblin -1.43
Halfling -2.36

I was looking at it to prove to myself that lizards are bashy. I think that lizard teams tend to "be bashy" at a mid tr when they've got 6 st 4 blockers, but until then rather like new chaos teams find themselves blockless, mighty blowless and being outbashed. To elves they are bashers, to dwarves they are fodder for longbeards.

Edit i was looking at it to prove to myself that lizards are bashy - and this list didn't help! [skink casualties clearly don't count]

vanGorn

Joined: Feb 24, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 21:58

CircularLogic wrote:

NO.
Usually sauri lack skills to bash and skinks simply cannot. In addition you usually miss DP - or you sacrifice a precious double on a skink.

A saurus can take dp on a normal roll, though.
I haven't seen a dirty saurus player yet, but with 80k he isn't much more expensive than a longbeard or lineelf.

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rick_s_chris

Joined: Jul 07, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 22:00

Lizards aren't bashy.

They are runny... Confused

albator2001

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 22:03

Excellent !

This list proves now that lizards are less bashy than amazons, norses and human !

Then if lizards should be banned from the No Bashy Cup, amazons, norses and human should too ! And the Cup should be called Elf and skaven cup ...

Hoodeddwarf wrote:

This is a list of the lrb teams according to cas difference/game
Khemri +1.04
Dwarf +0.66
Orc +0.47
Ogre +0.42
Chaos Dwarf +0.36
Undead +0.35
Nurgle's Rotters +0.08
Chaos +0.06
Necromantic -0.05
Amazon -0.23
Norse -0.35
Human -0.36
Lizardmen -0.6
Dark Elf -0.61
High Elf -0.72
Skaven -0.98
Vampire -1.11
Elf -1.21
Wood Elf -1.29
Goblin -1.43
Halfling -2.36

I was looking at it to prove to myself that lizards are bashy. I think that lizard teams tend to "be bashy" at a mid tr when they've got 6 st 4 blockers, but until then rather like new chaos teams find themselves blockless, mighty blowless and being outbashed. To elves they are bashers, to dwarves they are fodder for longbeards.

Edit i was looking at it to prove to myself that lizards are bashy - and this list didn't help! [skink casualties clearly don't count]

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 22:43

yay let's hear it for running your own tourney, and changing the rules of the tourney midway to accomodate your team!!!!

--j

ps...oh and by that list...which you can find here....nurglings are more bashy than chaos....and since you allow nurglings in your league, i shall be resubmitting my chaos to join your league, and i hope that i am not denied because you think my team is too bashy....which in all honesty they're really not

albator2001

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 23:05

Are you stupid or what ?

I told you several times, the rules were the same at the start of the Agile Cup tournaments !

Rules haven't changed since the beginning !

shadow46x2 wrote:

yay let's hear it for running your own tourney, and changing the rules of the tourney midway to accomodate your team!!!!

--j

ps...oh and by that list...which you can find here....nurglings are more bashy than chaos....and since you allow nurglings in your league, i shall be resubmitting my chaos to join your league, and i hope that i am not denied because you think my team is too bashy....which in all honesty they're really not

Macavity

Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 23:08

I'm fairly certain I hi-jacked this thread, boys....... Don't make me go all random on your butts! Wink

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Mithrilpoint

Joined: Mar 16, 2004

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 00:40

It hurts, but i´m agreeing with Macavity here. Let this discussion die a slow and painful death.

M

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Freezerator

Joined: Aug 27, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 02:31

the lizzies are not bashy in the slightest. i mean sure, str 4 is powerful, but when it takes 3 cas to get the first skill most of my lizzie teams end up with all saurus having anly one skill by gmae 20. (my skinks are MVP hogs)

HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 10:45

I just think the way people use the words "Agile" and "Bashy" as if they have an objective meaning in this context is misleading. Really, they are subjective terms: elves are "more agile" than orcs, orcs are more "bashy" than elves, but probably less "bashy" than a strong chaos team with four Chaos Warrior legends who rolled Block, +ST, +ST, Claw, RSC, Tackle, Guard as their skills.

There are few hard and fast rules because different teams bash in different ways against different opponents. If I'm playing against elves with lots of Dodge, I'd prefer to have lots of Tackle on my Orcs instead of Guard because I can outbash elves better with Tackle than Guard. But I then won't be able to outbash the Orcs who did take Guard instead of Tackle. In theory, there is such a thing as a "bashy" ideal, but in practice, how bashy you are is defined largely by who you're playing against at the moment.

In general, I would say that Lizardmen are not bashy against elves. They're slow to skill up and they need a lot of skills, whereas most elves can get Blodge in a bare handful of games, leaving the lizards -- almost literally -- in the mud. albator's team, on the other hand, would scare the shite out of me if I were an elf coach. I mean, 6 Str 4 Block Tacklers and a Big Guy Block Tackler with Break Tackle... it's disingenious to claim this team's strategy against elves does not revolve around kicking the crap out of them. That team is most certainly bashy against any elf team without enough Guard to stand up to them in a fight, and that's a lot of Guard...

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Buur

Joined: Apr 29, 2004

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 10:56

no i dont count lizzies as bashy but if you know you are going to play elfs well it help with 6 block tackle sauri... where ranked sauri teams would divide that 2nd skill more taking som guard and some breaktackle...
but stil i would say no.
-Buur

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DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 11:48

I think unless you are skilling up from fresh during the tournament, alot can depend on the skills you bring to the tournament.

I voted no, I do not think Lizardmen are bashy, but I don't think Human teams are either, but how would you feel if I applied with 4 M Blow Blitzers and 10 Dirty player Linemen, under those conditions they would be bashy and not in the spirit of the tournament.

So in summary, most Lizard teams are not bashy, your are, and are designed against the tourney they have entered.

The strange part is it is your own tournament and had someone else applied with that team, I am not so sure they would have been so welcome.

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 13:18

Mithrilpoint wrote:

pac, i´ll be sending you a pm so that we can dig even further down into our exciting discussion of the TO´s role in a tournament and off course the right or wrong way to argue. Smile

Well, two days later and no sign of any such PM ... Sad

Maybe you should start a new thread about it? Or don't you want to have a serious open discussion about the actual issues lying behind this whole hornet's nest?

To return to the question of the role of the tournament organiser, I note this line from your coach bio: 'I try to maximize everything. Basically a black orc could be named "playertype 23b" for all that i care, all i need is stats and probabillities. It is a game of numbers, nothing else.'

Now, coming from that perspective, I can certainly understand why you would not see anything amiss in albator's choice of team for his tournament. His choice was within the letter of the rules: so that's all right then.

Some gamers who start from different frames of reference see this very differently though: as I'm sure you're well able to understand. Some gamers believe that there is a spirit to the rules of a game (or a competition) in addition to the letter. Now, I appreciate that, from your point of view, you probably think that any talk about 'spirit' is a load of old cobblers. Wink

But there are still a lot of us who don't.

A tournament entitled the 'Agile Cup' (or the 'Non Bashy Cup' for that matter) is surely a tournament designed to attract elf-balling sides. (The record of past winners bears this out.) Not necessarily elf teams as such, but teams which play in a certain style.

Now, we may not all like elf-ball - and some of us may quietly enjoy it when an elf-balling side runs into a meatgrinder Twisted Evil

- but we know what it is. Elf-balling sides tend to score with relatively little blocking, and a lot of dodging, passing, and c. In other words, these teams play in an agile, non-bashy, style.

This, I would say, is the implicit spirit of a tournament titled the 'Agile Cup' (the same would apply equally to the 'Non Bashy Cup'). As a coach joining such a tournament, I would expect to encounter a certain kind of opposition: teams who intend to go round, past, or over my team when on offence, and play in a style focused on the ball. I would not expect to encounter a team that has been carefully designed as a weapon to eliminate every player on my team before running the ball in (ie which plays in a bashy, non-agile style).

If I were to encounter a team that differed wildly from that expectation. I would check the tournament rules. If - as in this case - it was in line with the letter of the rules, I would contact the tournament organiser and ask him if this was the type of team he had intended to attract to this tournament, and whether the tournament rules might need updating. If it was the tournament organiser himself who was running the team in question ...

As I say, you seem to come from the point of view of a tournament player, a min-maxer, for whom anything within the letter of the rules goes. As such I would not for a moment expect you to agree with this argument. However, surely you can at least accept that those Agile Cup coaches who did complain about albator's team (I have chatted to one in irc, but he has - perhaps wisely - elected not to post here) have a reasonable point given their starting assumptions?

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HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 21, 2005 - 13:29

pac's on the ball as usual. Smile

Well said.

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