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Buur

Joined: Apr 29, 2004

Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 21:31

No My post was ment as a sarcatic remark to hammerheim who in another tread seems to value life very cheep.....
-Buur

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Last edited by Buur on %b %23, %2005 - %21:%Aug; edited 2 times in total

Mezir

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 21:32

Gotcha.

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Vrangarz

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 21:37

Besides the discussion about Hitler and Co....

Is Arzok Spinerippa family-friendly? Mob Maneater? Borov The Butcher? Blagrot Bloodbooza? Beardy Ballbreakers? Nuffle's Bastards?

Guess which got approved and which not... Wink

I'm not really getting the point about the names.

BigMac

Joined: Dec 19, 2004

Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 22:17

Quote:

Still wrong; it is Christer's private property. But he's STILL responsible for its content. Last I checked, child porn wasn't okay even if you just collected it in your basement. Some things are illegal even on private property.

Thanks for the nitpicking of my words, point is: it's public.

Quote:

Uh huh. Yeah, universal human rights like freedom of thought and speech obviously don't apply in "central, certral european" [sic] countries.

Your understanding of human rights is flawed. Personal freedom ends where the freedom of others is violated.

Quote:

What, so I'm not allowed to make statements like "the moon is made of green cheese"?

Simple answer: no harm is done by saying that.

Quote:

You really don't understand what you are saying; freedom of speech and thought are bedrock values of democracy. Once it becomes illegal to question state-sponsored "truth", those core values are undermined and democracy is endangered. That's how the Nazis rose to power and the Holocaust came out in the first place -- the state-sponsored truth of "Jews are less than human" could not be questioned.

It is necessary and good for authority to be questioned in a healthy democracy. That includes questioning facts, even if such questions are as unpalatable as "Did the Holocaust really occur?". Once we stop questioning facts and simply accept the statements of those in authority, we're not preventing the mistakes of the past -- we're repeating them.

Democracy is not at all times something good. It works on the principle that the majority decides the fate of all. The majority is the masses and masses can easily be mobilized and manipulated. There have to be elites to be the guardians of fundamental ethical values.

Quote:

No it isn't. It's pretty stupid. By all means, smash the arguments of Holocaust deniers; ridicule them; insult them; tell them to shut up, if you want. But the moment you FORCE them to shut up, you are no better than the fascists were.

I understand why, in the circumstances, German law is as it is; they're trying to distance themselves from their past. But two wrongs don't make a right.

Its absolutely necessary to holt true to the most important principle of our society: never again, nowhere.

Quote:

You don't understand the nature of media; free media are a necessary part of democracy. Once you start imposing state-sanctioned rules on the media, you start undermining its value to democracy; rules like "don't question <X>". State-controlled or -influenced media are tools of authoritarian governments. So I don't find the fact that the media are forced to be silent on a given topic particularly reassuring, either.

I pray you will come to realise that the respect of basic human rights must be universal, and can not be contravened simply because it is inconvenient to the truth. However, as you advocate violence as a means of censorship, I don't hold high hopes.

Im about to point at you and laugh. So where are those Atomic Bombs in Irak on grounds of which your county joined an attack-war against an indipendent state on, violating the most sacred rule of the united nations which was founded to prevent attack-wars in the first place. Where are those Bombs? Was your oppinon on the subject based on what you kew for a fact or what the TV screen told you? Be more naive please.

sk8bcn

Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 23:30

first: I never mix into political or philosophical debates because I am too bad at english to this level. It always comes to a point where my vocabulary hinders me in expressing my point of view or clearly get the one of an other person.

Still I said I am for those kind of names banned because it's too hard to make a difference about history and offensive.
basically 3 point of views can exist:
-it's history so I allow it
-it might be perceived as offensive so I refuse them all
-I try to judge.

Point 3 is the most valid but hard to make in application so I am for point 1.

Just imagine HIGH elf team with name like Hitler Rommel and Himmler and with bio:

"in memory for my grand father who died in a camp. He felt from a mirador"

what about that? History?

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HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 00:58

BigMac wrote:

Your understanding of human rights is flawed. Personal freedom ends where the freedom of others is violated.

This coming from the man who advocates violence as a form of censorship.

Quote:

Simple answer: no harm is done by saying that [the moon is made of green cheese].

Nobody is harmed by Holocaust denial, either. Some people are very understandably offended and upset by it; yet that doesn't qualify as "harm" any more than vulgarity does. That's why Holocaust denial is legal in most countries that don't have a guilt of association complex over it; that's why "Mein Kampf" is still in print. It may be racist, bigotted trash, but the difference between US and THEM (i.e. fascists) is that WE do not restrict freedom of speech needlessly whereas THEY (and YOU) do.

Quote:

Democracy is not at all times something good. It works on the principle that the majority decides the fate of all. The majority is the masses and masses can easily be mobilized and manipulated. There have to be elites to be the guardians of fundamental ethical values.

Yes, but regardless of the majority's will, the majority can not violate certain basic human rights; the minority can always rely on those rights, whatever happens during the voting.

Once you violate those basic rights, you're repeating past mistakes and you become a dictator.

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Its absolutely necessary to holt true to the most important principle of our society: never again, nowhere.

Except to anyone who dares try to voice their objections over state-sponsored truths; they get beaten up and locked up by "enlightened" citizens such as yourself.

Quote:

Im about to point at you and laugh. So where are those Atomic Bombs in Irak on grounds of which your county joined an attack-war against an indipendent state on, violating the most sacred rule of the united nations which was founded to prevent attack-wars in the first place. Where are those Bombs? Was your oppinon on the subject based on what you kew for a fact or what the TV screen told you?

Don't ask me; I was against the war without UN sanction. The BBC had its fair share of critics of the Iraq war and I certainly wasn't convinced of the validity of the arguments for the invasion, then and now.

Funny, though, how you dodged my question by building up a strawman... what, can't you answer my points without resorting to libel and ad homs?

But of course, you need something to laugh about because you've got nothing else. So feel free to assume all you will about me if it amuses you; you're still imagining things, and you're still wrong.

Quote:

Be more naive please.

If I did that, I'd be like you; I prefer to think for myself rather than allow self-righteous indignation to cloud my judgement.

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A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks

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HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 01:06

Besides, I really don't think making Holocaust denial illegal works as a way of suppressing it. The evidence proving the Holocaust is undeniable, so let the facts speak for themselves; history is taught by education and debate, not by silencing the opposition.

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EvolveToAnarchism

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 02:08

Quote:

I spoke to the guy with the IRA team, he's Australian and so it's not ment to be offencive it just was to me. As a result i will just not play against that team and leave it at that.

That sounds like a very sensible approach. I'd highly recommend it. Some people might even change their mind after hearing your reasons and edit/delete/retire their teams. Or you might understand that no spite was intended and feel a bit less offended. Heck you might even learn something interesting in the process.

As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Protecting Your Digital Rights

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origami

Joined: Oct 14, 2003

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 02:25

EvolveToAnarchism wrote:

Quote:

I spoke to the guy with the IRA team, he's Australian and so it's not ment to be offencive it just was to me. As a result i will just not play against that team and leave it at that.

That sounds like a very sensible approach. I'd highly recommend it. Some people might even change their mind after hearing your reasons and edit/delete/retire their teams. Or you might understand that no spite was intended and feel a bit less offended. Heck you might even learn something interesting in the process.

As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Protecting Your Digital Rights

That's a very anarchist way of approaching things. Wink

BigMac

Joined: Dec 19, 2004

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 07:58

HollowOne wrote:

blah, stuff, flames

I was using the Irak example to point out that you were far to optimistic in your interpretetion of the media's (and especially mass media's) role in society.

Pardon me but look at Bush, who really is really brainwashing his citizens by telling blatant lies via the TV screen, i mean come on when you see an average US citizen interviewed about the Irak mess, and you get the answer "those guys attacked us on 9.11" you can't help but admire the propaganda skills of that bush administration.

On the subject on what you call censorship.
First of all harm is done by Holocaust denial. Massive harm. I'll just advise you to read abot the subject if you really are interested. Because this is not the platform where i could educate you on the finer points of this.
You got to understand that these event are not just one of millions of events and stories that happend at some point in this planets history.
The events from 1935 to 1990 are what is defining the modern germany. The attempt to understand that past, accept it, deal with its consequences, learn form it and walk on. It's like a big scale trauma-patient.

Secondly, people who deny the holocaust are generally, without any exeption not qualified to be decent members of society and or mankind at all. They are eiter dumb violent neo-nazis or pseudo-intelligent mental fire-layers. So as far as i am concerned they should be put into some kind of rocked and shot to the moon. That part is my personal oppinion the other stuff was the scientific sociologic explanation.

As i said the less central european countries have another understanding of this, in my oppinon thats because for Brittian for example the whole thing wasn't as bad. 10 Years of war, couple of million losses, big win, big party, the good guys prevailed - the bad guys hung - something to be proud of. I can see how you have a thicker skinn on the subject. I guess germany will have too in maybe 50 years from now. But until then i think its a good thing to be highly alarmed and on watch.

Oh and Forsberg is THE hockey player, so much is for sure Very Happy

HollowOne

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 10:40

BigMac wrote:

HollowOne wrote:

blah, stuff, flames

Hypocrite.

Quote:

I was using the Irak example to point out that you were far to optimistic in your interpretetion of the media's (and especially mass media's) role in society.

And you don't know what you are talking about. Problems with the media arise when they are controlled and influenced by the government; yes, free media can lie, but so does state-influenced or -controlled media. The difference is that free media represents all political spectra. When the media only represent one point of view, that's when it is time to be worried.

Quote:

On the subject on what you call censorship.
First of all harm is done by Holocaust denial. Massive harm. I'll just advise you to read abot the subject if you really are interested. Because this is not the platform where i could educate you on the finer points of this.

Right.

Because I have so much to learn from someone who advocates beatings to political dissidents. If you're so enlightened, why are you too lazy to educate yourself on why your brand of censorship is harmful to democracy?

Quote:

It's like a big scale trauma-patient.

Which explains why the laws are made; it's a human reaction to overcompensate for past wrongs. It doesn't make the overcompensation morally right.

Quote:

Secondly, people who deny the holocaust are generally, without any exeption not qualified to be decent members of society and or mankind at all. They are eiter dumb violent neo-nazis or pseudo-intelligent mental fire-layers. So as far as i am concerned they should be put into some kind of rocked and shot to the moon. That part is my personal oppinion the other stuff was the scientific sociologic explanation.

Wrong. It's all just part of your personal opinion; that's the point. Anyone with sufficient distance from the events can see that, when you advocate beating people up or shooting people into the moon for holding a politically incorrect opinion, you're either a troll or a hypocrite. That "scientific sociologic explanation" tripe you're harping on about only lends further dark irony to the situation.

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BigMac

Joined: Dec 19, 2004

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 14:59

"The horizon of some people is a circle with a radius of zero ... they call that their point of view." (Albert Einstein)

Listen Simple Minded Person, i just took the time to explain some of the foundations of the german constitution to you.
Maybe you should pick the people you want to drag into flame wars with more care, and try to stay away from the guys who studied sociology, history, jounalism and german. Because those people own you and your pathetic little world of dogmas big time.

Please do not respond again unless you want to have the last word, because you obvioulsy don't want to benefit from this conversation, but WIN it.

btw Forsberg got traded to the Flyers, thats a shame isn't it? Sad

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 15:06

BigMac wrote:

"The horizon of some people is a circle with a radius of zero ... they call that their point of view." (Albert Einstein)

Listen Simple Minded Person, i just took the time to explain some of the foundations of the german constitution to you.
Maybe you should pick the people you want to drag into flame wars with more care, and try to stay away from the guys who studied sociology, history, jounalism and german. Because those people own you and your pathetic little world of dogmas big time.

I feel so happy to belong to a community where such enlightened beings exist... Rolling Eyes

Oh my God, I love humble people sooo much...

Note: I have my own point of view about the matter (you know, that little circle radius zero...). I just wanted to point out that your approach to dialogue is amazingly wrong, no matter how firm you are in your beliefs and ideas.

my two cents.

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xen7ric

Joined: Jan 13, 2005

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 15:06

Methinks BigMac should consider swimming downriver instead of up. That way he may get further and expend less energy.

HollowOne. Nice to have someone saying roughly what I would be saying.. Saves me the trouble although I think a discussion about media independance could spawn another 10 page thread...

Mully

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 15:10

Quote:

I was using the Irak example to point out that you were far to optimistic in your interpretetion of the media's (and especially mass media's) role in society.

Pardon me but look at Bush, who really is really brainwashing his citizens by telling blatant lies via the TV screen,

Bush may be dumb but at least he can spell Iraq

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