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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Dallas, TEXAS

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:21 Reply with quote Back to top

In the spirit of the old days when elfballing was the "bane" I think we need to take another look at this.

AG 4+ with blodge is a game winner. In fact it is so good at winning games it makes some wonder why everyone is not playing elf ball.

Spec the last few rounds of box and ranked majors it just makes me puke watching these lame butt blodge AG 5 and AG6 players running around with no care in the world. Turning games on their head. Performing ridiculous plays and winning matches single handed.

CPOMB is really about pixel hugging in the end. Lets admit it. CPOMB is not at its core about winning the match. The theory is hopefully you CAS enough pixels to win by attrition.

AG4+ and Blodge, well there is no counter. The only counter is NUFFLE. Lets face it, there is nothing you can do to stop a AG6 leaping blodger from jumping into 3 man cage, pick up the ball, dodge out, pass the ball to some othe stupid AG5 guy with 2 TZ draped over him. That loser catches the ball, dodges out GFI twice and scores. That is lameness of the highest order. There is no skill involved. That is called picking up the bag of dice and rolling some bones.

In the end we play this game to win. No matter your tactics to achieve that goal, that is the ultimate goal. AG4+ and Blodge gives you a huge edge that requires little to no skill.

CRP just made this inbalance worse. They beef up the CAS side with the "dreaded combo" but Elfballers are oblivious to this. They allready were taking high CAS in LRB4. The CAS rate on elfballers has not increased, its still about the same. The CAS against blew up in everyone elses face, all the non AG blodge freak teams (in other words every other team), so they have to deal with that (the dreaded combo) + still deal with the Blodge AG inbalance in the game.

Then they double down on giving the AG blodge freaks the J-man which further increases their power.

CRP did not blance out anything. It just made the majority of teams life rougher and then padded the rule book to make elfballers even more powerful.

Dont get me started on the removing of ageing. That by itself increased elfball 10 fold. Now you can make a +STAT frek elfballer team even more powerful and dont have to worry one bit about perm damage from ageing.

In the end. The dreaded combo has gotten all the attention because of the pixel huggers but the real game unbalancing aspect of CRP is the +STAT freaking elfballers.

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Last edited by PainState on Apr 26, 2012 - 16:12; edited 1 time in total
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Ahem,


What a load of nonsense......

The only thing your need to counter a full team of high agility blodgers is about three tacklers with damage modifiers.

Spending some doubles on diving tackle or some mutations on tentacles also does wonders.

Just because nobody seems to bother building a team that can counter elfballers doesn't mean it can't be done.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Yup; Diving Tackle + Tentacles is exactly what my major team wants.

Unfortunately, they are far, far, far away from being ready for a major. Dang you GLT!
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Aye what Cloggy said (with the added point that there's this great skill called 'guard' which prevents lots of the damage these ag5 leapers are doing). Also there's a huge difference between ag5/6 and your standard ag4 when it comes to insane game winning plays like you mentioned. They're also much harder to get.
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:
Ahem,


What a load of nonsense......

The only thing your need to counter a full team of high agility blodgers is about three tacklers with damage modifiers.

Spending some doubles on diving tackle or some mutations on tentacles also does wonders.

Just because nobody seems to bother building a team that can counter elfballers doesn't mean it can't be done.


+1.

I love this about CRP...a team that stacks up clawbomb and mindlessly hits PO constantly will lose to an elf team that plays properly.

In the Box, I ran into one Chaos team where he skilled every player barring the ball carrier: Block/MB/Claw/Tackle, so replacing PO for Tackle. He had about 8 of these players (I was 2k TV+, I forget the team), and it was an utter nightmare to play against.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Location: Cambridge, England

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Are these ongoing missives not more suited to blogs?

Just pondering.

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Shraaaag



Joined: Feb 15, 2004
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top

+stat freaks on any teams are a pain (maybe with the exception of stunty players).

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

no.. +stat stunties are crazy too. See Shindahl (actually Shindahl is a terrible example, as I'm an awful lizardman coach; but in principle, Shindahl should be crazy), or various S4 block skinks, or various high agi one turning halflings, or Spins legendary goblins, etc
Shraaaag



Joined: Feb 15, 2004
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 18:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
no.. +stat stunties are crazy too. See Shindahl (actually Shindahl is a terrible example, as I'm an awful lizardman coach; but in principle, Shindahl should be crazy), or various S4 block skinks, or various high agi one turning halflings, or Spins legendary goblins, etc


I'm changing my statement then: +stat freaks on any team are a pain (even stunties).

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Location: Seattle

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:
Ahem,


What a load of nonsense......

The only thing your need to counter a full team of high agility blodgers is about three tacklers with damage modifiers.

Spending some doubles on diving tackle or some mutations on tentacles also does wonders.

Just because nobody seems to bother building a team that can counter elfballers doesn't mean it can't be done.


Agreed. Despite their apparent weakness to $$&^*(@#&(@@#^*(!@ Dark Elves, my Chaos Waste Crushers have had a good amount of success vs. elfballers using exactly that strategy. Some damage dudes, some tackle, some tents (which I must say are generally pretty worthless without +3 ST adv) and DT, and lots of guard. Oh, and the ST5 surehands CW helps a lot too, although a wiz and an ag5 leaper (yes, I'm looking at you PeteW!) can crack that nut pretty easily.

I'm thinking with the death of Plaguehammer the Fell (the third of my three ST5 CWs), the Crushers are going to have quite a bit more trouble, but we'll see.

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johnnih



Joined: Feb 26, 2012

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 18:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
Are these ongoing missives not more suited to blogs?

Just pondering.


I suspect people want them out in the open so they can get a load of disapproving responses. Somekind of masochistic tendency?
SvenS



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Location: Göteborg Sweden

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 18:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Heh are you serious PS?! Shocked
You somehow missed how common tackle mb PO guys are now? Or that tents are more common?
No skill???
You try playing with 5 guys to win and then get back for amends :p

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pingus



Joined: Dec 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

My only problem is that elves no longer have "natural enemy" in the metagame. But well there is no perfect metagame. I think CRP is still better than LRB4. I would like to see fouling being good again tho.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Location: New Mexico

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Now now...

The issue isn't +AG elfs in R or B. The issue (apparently) is +AG elfs in a tournament!

Because the longevity of +AG elfs isn't that great, but if you only need them for a few games, well, then you may have something which is OP.

OP short term, balanced long term, as many Leagues can probably attest to.

The counter to +AG elfs isn't tackle +MB either, the counter is for the elfs to roll enough 1s to not get away with all their nonsense. If it's game by game the elves have the advantage. If it's who winds up at the top after 10+ games it's not so extreme anymore.
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2012 - 20:07 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Now now...

The issue isn't +AG elfs in R or B. The issue (apparently) is +AG elfs in a tournament!

Because the longevity of +AG elfs isn't that great, but if you only need them for a few games, well, then you may have something which is OP.

OP short term, balanced long term, as many Leagues can probably attest to.

The counter to +AG elfs isn't tackle +MB either, the counter is for the elfs to roll enough 1s to not get away with all their nonsense. If it's game by game the elves have the advantage. If it's who winds up at the top after 10+ games it's not so extreme anymore.



Naw.

The counters (in tournaments):

1) Blodge + Sure hands + ST 3 - Maximise the chance of the -2d failing

2) Guard - If the elves get a 1d or 2d, wrestle and a reroll gives them 50% chance of getting it free, then you are probably stuffed. Guard means it's a halfdice, and combined with blodge/sure hands, makes you relatively safe against woodies.

3) Diving Tackle/Tackle. It slows them down, and the ability to put blodgers down is a necessity.

4) Careful positional play. I see too many coaches that facing elves just chuck everything forward to try and trap and kill the elves, then call dice when the elves dance past their lines and sack a carrier. You can't rush, have to play it slowly and carefully and not make mistakes, or you'll get punished.

5) Sidestep/Stand Firm - Again, very underrated skills...but all the elves barring Dark Elves have a *very* strong 1 turn attack. If you can put 3 sidestep/3 stand firm on the LOS, that makes it a hell of a lot harder.

The real issue in tournaments is that skills that counter elves aren't as useful against bash, and visa versa. If you want to make a team that stuffs elves, it's relatively easy, but making a team that can beat both elves and bash is the true challenge...and given the "popularity" of certain combos, too many coaches just skill to play against bash, and ignore the possibility that they might have to play elves.
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