37 coaches online • Server time: 12:26
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post javagoto Post Is dirty player wort...goto Post CR system math detai...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Elves, Slann and Skaven are the case where I would opt not to receive


Vampires, too. Also, against these races, I often see Bashers kicking deliberately just to not give them the benefit.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 15:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Stats are pointless - the only games you're going to have any number of for significant analysis come from CRP, and unless you screen rookie only, those are going to be tilted by POMB (and it is tilted, because arguments aside about damage or whatever, you're including a skill that isn't available in the current ruleset).


(T)Pomb is something you'd be considering in BB2 as well Licker. Personally, I just wouldn't kick first with anything in CRP after about 1100k TV because it was suicide.

_________________
Image
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Then collect your stats in the new rule set.

Honestly it hasn't changed things that much anyway.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

With agility teams, I tend to be a kicker. Indeed, in times of peak FUMBBL traffic, I remember this being the standard forum advice. I didn't find CRP changed things, perhaps others did.

The logic (mentioned above in part, but I agree with it) goes that you want to defend with a full, maximised team, and then if you're reduced to less than 11, you should be able to dance around and stall your own drive out for as long as possible with your speed and agility hiding the ball in any corner of the pitch you can access. Perhaps a full 8 turns against a slow bash team. Maybe LRB4 taught the skill of playing short handed and it's less scary if that's where you cut your teeth? Perhaps not being a fan of the 'stars and bums' way of building a team and spacing out my skills helps with playing this way. Also, by kicking you have control of the second half. If your opponent has proven himself to not be very good but has been lucky and scored anyway on his drive, or if you've generated some CAS yourself, you have the option of putting it in early and playing to win.

I'm sure there are examples where I'd receive, but not as a general rule. To be honest, I'm a habitual kicker; I should think the only games I like to receive in are the games where not losing is very important (rather than winning being the main goal) or if it's a mid-high TV bash off. No, I have no numbers to hand, before you ask.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

If one of the teams is bashier than the other: almost always receive.

If both teams are equally bashy, then it doesn't matter much, but I tend to receive if it's bash vs bash and kick if it's elf vs elf.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 01:00 Reply with quote Back to top

@goo

The logic of 'defend with 11' certainly makes sense.

But...

Is it better to defend with 11 up 1-0 or to defend with 11 in a 0-0 game?

Yes, that implies you have the team and skill to score 'easily' in two turns, but that's the part people seem to ignore and I do not understand why.

Receive, set up your offense, take one blitz per opponent turn (ideally, if we invoke nuffle then I argue it doesn't matter what you chose, you got nuffled) score on turn 2, 3, ... whatever makes sense, and you are still defending with likely 11.

The alternative is to kick with 11, and hope you don't lose more than you expect on your opponents turn, and that you can either stop the score or steal the ball. Well imagine you actually do stop the score, but they removed 6 of your players, and now you are playing the 2nd half receiving with 6 players vs. their 11 in a 0-0 game.

That doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.

But sure, someone will come along and say that if you are better than your opponent you can prevent the score or steal the ball easily. The problem is, if you are better than your opponent it really doesn't matter what you choose because, well, because you are already going to win unless nuffle gets in the way.
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 02:59 Reply with quote Back to top

A kick in the nuts is always a win. Kick'em in the nuts 2017.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 05:06 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
@goo

The logic of 'defend with 11' certainly makes sense.

But...

Is it better to defend with 11 up 1-0 or to defend with 11 in a 0-0 game?

Yes, that implies you have the team and skill to score 'easily' in two turns, but that's the part people seem to ignore and I do not understand why.

Receive, set up your offense, take one blitz per opponent turn (ideally, if we invoke nuffle then I argue it doesn't matter what you chose, you got nuffled) score on turn 2, 3, ... whatever makes sense, and you are still defending with likely 11.

The alternative is to kick with 11, and hope you don't lose more than you expect on your opponents turn, and that you can either stop the score or steal the ball. Well imagine you actually do stop the score, but they removed 6 of your players, and now you are playing the 2nd half receiving with 6 players vs. their 11 in a 0-0 game.

That doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.

But sure, someone will come along and say that if you are better than your opponent you can prevent the score or steal the ball easily. The problem is, if you are better than your opponent it really doesn't matter what you choose because, well, because you are already going to win unless nuffle gets in the way.


2 points:

That goo makes it succeed doesn't make it seem like it's essential to go one way or another.

second, i realize that I like playing defense more and prefer to offload or delay the task of playing a cogent offense until later. I believe to some extent you can win a game on defense and lose a game on offense and against vamps for example, i'm a bit leery of not screwing it up and putting myself in the hole at the start of the game. If i kick off to them I can get potentially gain a leg up on how to approach the 2nd half receiving.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 08:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I've not really understood that, licker, although I have read it a few times. Are you saying 'if defending with 11 is so good, why not receive, score quickly then try to do it twice, or at least once with a TD banked'? Well, you could do that, sure. But I'm sure we'd all agree that 'take 8 turns to score' is pretty fundamental Blood Bowl, for reasons I don't need to spell out. If you're so worried about losing players and contend defending is more dangerous than attacking in that regard (I'm not sure I totally agree with that as it goes. It's rare you can limit your opponent to 7 blocks then a LOS in your 8 turns in reality, especially if he's good. Commonly you take fewer blocks while defending if you're passively threatening enough and kettling your opposition into it's shell), why let your opponent chew up you team even further en route to 2-1?

I suppose the summary for the OP is that there are apparently differing schools of thought, suck it and see what you like. Wink
HeyGuys



Joined: Jul 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 11:15 Reply with quote Back to top

My opinion is that you kick when you are against a team that will outbash you, since you will get 2 tries at KO rolls.
You receive against a team that you can outbash (or are on equal terms with) since your game as an agility team is much easier with the numbers advantage.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 15:16 Reply with quote Back to top

That's a contradiction. When two statements contradict each other one of them is always untrue.
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 19:49 Reply with quote Back to top

yeah, I always chose to receive.

My ideal game with elves is receive, score turn 5 - with an (almost?) full team then go all out to steal the ball and be up 2-0 at half time. After that you don't really need to risk your team anymore, just keep the players safe and wait for any easy chances.

Its an uphill struggle if you only have 7 players on the pitch, you need to maximise the amount of time when you have the numbers.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 23:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
I've not really understood that, licker, although I have read it a few times. Are you saying 'if defending with 11 is so good, why not receive, score quickly then try to do it twice, or at least once with a TD banked'?


That's exactly what I'm saying. Other than 'score quickly' because the score part depends on how long you feel confident in stalling. And yes, it's easier to stall with 11 players than with fewer as well Smile

Purplegoo wrote:
Well, you could do that, sure. But I'm sure we'd all agree that 'take 8 turns to score' is pretty fundamental Blood Bowl, for reasons I don't need to spell out.


This is a truism I'm not sure I completely agree with anymore. It's how you approach a 2:1 grind to be sure, but if we are talking about elfs, then they usually don't have the luxury of performing a 2:1 grind (all matchup dependent of course).

Purplegoo wrote:
If you're so worried about losing players and contend defending is more dangerous than attacking in that regard (I'm not sure I totally agree with that as it goes.


I'm not more worried about losing players, I'm positing that you are in a superior position defending a 1-0 lead with a 'full' team than you are defending a 0-0 game with a full team.

Else please explain in more detail the rational behind kicking first so you can defend with 11. The thought process I've seen before says that you do this because you can 'score easily' even if down players. Yet if that's true, why do you not just 'score easily' when equal in players and then defend with your full team anyway? Ahh, you fear the 2:1 grind I suppose. Yet I cannot really see the advantage in giving your opponent 8 turns to bash on you before you even get to touch the ball.

Purplegoo wrote:
It's rare you can limit your opponent to 7 blocks then a LOS in your 8 turns in reality, especially if he's good. Commonly you take fewer blocks while defending if you're passively threatening enough and kettling your opposition into it's shell), why let your opponent chew up you team even further en route to 2-1?


You take even fewer blocks if you are attacking though right? I mean the main difference is in the LOS blocks, but no matter kicking or receiving you're giving up 2 LOS chances no matter what. The difference is simply in whether you are ahead or tied when you give up the first batch.

Purplegoo wrote:
I suppose the summary for the OP is that there are apparently differing schools of thought, suck it and see what you like. Wink


Indeed. Statistics would be nice to show what the real W/L ratios look like kicking or receiving. Before I thought differently I didn't pay attention to my win rates, and since I started the 'always receive' I have not logged enough matches to make any real determination about what my actual rates are.

We all can explain the thought process behind our preference, but none of us actually knows if we are correct. Even if it is more a matter of personal play style dictating your rate, we still don't know if we're right universally or just for ourselves.
flub



Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2017 - 02:47 Reply with quote Back to top

With Elf Union I'd kick. This might change at higher TV, but I play Elf Union almost exclusively and when I receive I struggle and usually lose. I'll try to explain why, but I'm not the most experienced coach so feel free to disregard this. I have played more EU than Licker, though :0

Basic stuff: A new EU team will not have a bench, and armor breaks are extremely frequent. You will rarely finish a game, much less a half, with a full team ready to go. Playing D with 11 players plays into EU's strength, which is scoring ability on Defense anytime. Pop the ball out once, score, and you have a great chance to get the win. Hard to create the pressure needed for this when you're undermanned (and out of rerolls).

On Offense, I don't think you can really control the drive the way a basher team can. You focus more on protecting players I find. And then there are snake eyes and failed blocks eating up rerolls and forcing turnovers and things can get really messy, you may lose before you ever really get started. You don't benefit from receiving the way an Orc does, stomping out dudes for 8 turns. And your reward for the hassle is less opportunity to recover your KO'd guys.

It's better to defend a 1-0 lead, but it's 2x better when you're defending a 1-0 lead and you're set to receive in the next half. If you like playing a "safer" positional defense, and you're confident you can shut out the score, I can see receiving and setting the tone being better. But I think that comes when you have more tools, more TV, a bench.

I'd like to know what more successful Elf Union coaches think.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2017 - 03:28 Reply with quote Back to top

If you have only 11 EU players and receive you should be able to deep stall for 3-4 turns vs bashy teams then move forth and scoring on turn 7-8 ideally.
The first games are generally harder due to lack of core skills but after a while it gets easier.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 1.2 © 2003 PNphpBB Group
Credits