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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 03:49 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
licker wrote:

So convenient for you to not quote the part where I showed he had a better orc team (record wise) that never used a goblin.

That team was from CRP (I checked, it was made before rules change).
Maybe with the MVP nomination using a Goblin is more appealing, or he wanted to just use a Goblin, the team he's currently using in the NAF EurOpen tournament has a Goblin:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=886106


NAF is irrelevant, it's a completely different system, if you think CRP doesn't count then in no possible way would NAF count for anything.

I don't think CRP nor BB2016 makes any difference for orcs myself, but you're welcome to assume that throwing MVPs at goblins is somehow a good idea if you like. So is spart if that's what he's doing. I'm pretty sure it's just a bad idea.

MattDakka wrote:

So, do you think he's the kind of guy that plays with inferior line ups? He plays to win, the Thrower with Leader and 2 team rrs points in the optimization direction, and optimization suggests a competitive approach, not the will to play an "inferior" line up.
He doesn't play his NAF team to lose either.


I really don't even remotely care what he does. He's not here discussing this, I have no idea how good he is and I don't really care. Whatever his motivations are he can explain them, not you. I showed you already that his most successful B orc team never used a goblin. Does that mean they are 'bad'? No, it just means he's had success both ways, but, small sample size disclaimer, he has not 'proven' that goblins make for a better record than no goblins.

MattDakka wrote:

I don't think good coaches use a Goblin because they need to hope for 1TTD, but if they use him they must have a good reason, not just because they want to mess around with a "fun" roster.
Personally I don't rely on throwing the Goblin but it's the best bet to score in one turn for Orcs for sure.
About Goblin as fouler, I don't use him for fouling either, so here I agree with you.


Good coaches can still make mistakes. Or, as I've answered to PC, can have a different opinion about what they LIKE. There is a style argument to be had among the better coaches more than for 'normal skilled' coaches. They can leverage different advantages better, and can be successful with 'less optimal' builds because of their ability to process in game options better.

My argument is still not that goblins are 'bad', (in the context of a 13th or 14th player), it's that they are not 'as good' as either not having them, or running an additional line orc.

But even that isn't really something I feel that strongly about. Most of my objections to the 'advice' was in regards to how people were claiming to use the goblin on their team.

It's not there to foul, it's not there for one turn TDs, it's not there to be used actively outside of what I consider to be fairly edge cases I don't seem to encounter with any frequency.

If you do encounter those cases with more frequency then maybe our play styles for orcs are significantly different, or, you are just not as good at playing orcs. Your advice after all is to score with and cycle goblins as much as possible. I think that's terrible advice, and even if we look at sparts teams it does not appear that's how he uses them (else he would have more spp on them or more of them retired). He seems to use them in the manner I expect PC is suggesting, as the alternative when you need the alternative.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 04:20 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:

NAF is irrelevant, it's a completely different system, if you think CRP doesn't count then in no possible way would NAF count for anything.

Different yes, but mechanically speaking, a Goblin is still a Goblin in NAF and in BB2016, even better in progressive environment because he might have AG 4 or MA 7, unlike in NAF.
licker wrote:
you're welcome to assume that throwing MVPs at goblins is somehow a good idea if you like. So is spart if that's what he's doing. I'm pretty sure it's just a bad idea.

I didn't suggest to sistematically feed MVPs to Goblins, but, if you want to skill them up (and cycle), with the new ruleset is a more viable strategy because you can target them, IF you want.
That is way different than nominating the Goblin each and every game.
licker wrote:

I really don't even remotely care what he does. He's not here discussing this, I have no idea how good he is and I don't really care. Whatever his motivations are he can explain them, not you.

Since he was not here I tried to figure why he uses the Goblin, and since he's a good coach I used him as example.
licker wrote:
he has not 'proven' that goblins make for a better record than no goblins.

That was never my point, my point was to show that Goblin can be used in competitive Orc team by a competitive Orc coach. I never implied that Orc teams with a Goblin have a better win rate (that would need some data mining), but that an Orc team with a Goblin has one extra tool to win, therefore I don't share your dogmatic view about never ever using a Goblin.
licker wrote:
Good coaches can still make mistakes. Or, as I've answered to PC, can have a different opinion about what they LIKE. There is a style argument to be had among the better coaches more than for 'normal skilled' coaches. They can leverage different advantages better, and can be successful with 'less optimal' builds because of their ability to process in game options better.

That's nice, but whatever you consider it, style, using less optimal build etc. the fact is that good coaches use (and don't use) a Goblin.
licker wrote:
My argument is still not that goblins are 'bad', (in the context of a 13th or 14th player), it's that they are not 'as good' as either not having them, or running an additional line orc.

What's wrong with having a shot (although unlikely) to turn a tie into a win by TTM?
licker wrote:
It's not there to foul, it's not there for one turn TDs, it's not there to be used actively outside of what I consider to be fairly edge cases I don't seem to encounter with any frequency.

As I said, I played without Goblin, and now I play with the Goblin, I see pros and cons, but even if he can be useful for edge cases only, a TV 40 investment will not change drastically the roster, especially a roster with a bench.
licker wrote:

Your advice after all is to score with and cycle goblins as much as possible.

Nope, this is twisting my words. I wrote: "2) perform the ball carrier duty in some situations, the classic example is running past several tackle zones to score, if you cycle them after the first skill up you could have a MA 7 or AG 4 Goblin."

I never suggested to score as much as possible with Goblins ("some situations" doesn't mean "as much as possible") and I pointed out that you can skill them easily now thanks to the MVP rule (no need to score TD), and that you should not keep Goblins who don't roll stat increase at the first roll.
licker wrote:

He seems to use them in the manner I expect PC is suggesting, as the alternative when you need the alternative.

That is what I wrote in another post: "I didn't suggest to use the Goblin to score in every match, but that a Goblin may be useful to score in some situations."

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