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Poll
Hourly box activations?
Permantly change box to hourly activations
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Permantly change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Trial change box to hourly activations
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Trial change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
27%
 27%  [ 22 ]
Change nothing
62%
 62%  [ 50 ]
Total Votes : 80


mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 02:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, i think we're past the point of changing the composition of Box activations. That was a a measure worth looking at when trying to get more box players from a larger playing pool.

I think its time we combined ranked and box and let the most possible games happen.

Also as far as the purpose of box and ranked I think it's quite clear - get practice, build teams, win games. Lord knows that I use it mostly for practice and for tourneys at this point.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 02:44 Reply with quote Back to top

@Licker: I agree, perhaps it is time to try some form of forced diversity in Box.

Licker wrote:
But any change, meaningful change, is going to require people to change the way they think about what B 'should be'.


Yes, we need to look at redefining what Box is supposed to be (and R even more so, imo ...)

@The_Murker: I think that's a cool idea. I'd be willing to give it a go.

koadah wrote:
The problem with divisions is that they divide people.

Fewer divisions FTW.


I couldn't agree with you more here, koadah. The FUMBBL user base can't support any more divisions. Any new division should be either a consolidation or replacement for the existing ones.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 02:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Combining is fine only if there is matchmaking only.
Cherrypicking/dodging opponents is against the logic of competition itself.

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Gozer_the_Gozerian



Joined: May 30, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 03:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Pick your cherries while you can, robots are taking over!
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604303/apple-picking-robot-prepares-to-compete-for-farm-jobs/
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 05:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Fundamentally, the two divisions are different and combining them will make no one happy. If you don't like how choosy people are when trying to get games in Ranked, then taking away a blind draw will make you unhappy. If you don't like being matched up against certain teams you will be unhappy if you are forced into a blind draw.

Likewise forcing people to activate three teams will put off some people. If I feel like elfballing today and my orcs are drawn that may also be annoying.

What if the divisions were combined people say? What if you had the option to put any of your teams on gamefinder. Then at the top and bottom of the hour you also had the option to activate any of the teams in a blind draw?

I don't know that it would solve much. Those who activate for the box would probably activate the same teams they currently activate in the box. However you may glean a few games from people who are tired of waiting for someone to accept a ranked match and go ahead and activate. You may also get some boxers who will take what they see as an easy match up if it presents itself before the draw.

My opinion is that the Box is advertised as the competitive division on Fumbbl. Forcing a three team activation only enhances and solidifies that definition. Are you good enough to be successful with a variety of teams? Combine this with a black box coaches ranking (#1 to #5,000,000) and you appeal to the competitive nature of people.

Unfortunately, Christer is likely to upset the player base no matter what he does.
Beanchilla



Joined: Sep 20, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 09:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I love the idea of a bigger, more balanced box, but my issue isn't so much the players but the time. I already barely have time for a 60-90 minute game a few times a week. Waiting longer will make it impossible for me and it already is a huge pain in the neck.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 11:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
Fundamentally, the two divisions are different and combining them will make no one happy. If you don't like how choosy people are when trying to get games in Ranked, then taking away a blind draw will make you unhappy. If you don't like being matched up against certain teams you will be unhappy if you are forced into a blind draw.


Combining the divisions is not taking anything away. It is giving a team the option to use either.

The only people who may lose out are those who refuse to play teams that have played non-scheduler games.

Coaches could put a team both on the scheduler and game finder at the same time. Whichever finds it a game first removes it from the other.

As it stands, if I create a team in [R] it can't use the scheduler. If I create it in [B] it can't use gamefinder.

IMO that should increase a team's chance of getting a game.

Having all teams in one place means each team has access to more tournaments.

A team has more chance to progress as you don't need to use different teams for different divisions. (Yes, I'd be a mono-activator.)



Kondor wrote:

...

My opinion is that the Box is advertised as the competitive division on Fumbbl. Forcing a three team activation only enhances and solidifies that definition. Are you good enough to be successful with a variety of teams? Combine this with a black box coaches ranking (#1 to #5,000,000) and you appeal to the competitive nature of people.


That is maybe the crux of it. Keeping it as the hardcore division when fewer and fewer people feel like being hardcore.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 12:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't see more or less activation times as solving anything.

I do think making people activate 3+ teams from 3+ categories would make the box less filthy and more appealing.

But I have always thought that R should be the only division and Box a way of getting games in R. With a flag for 'random draw only' teams (both for pride and allowing those teams to only face similar if they choose), so those that want to avoid picking and pickers could do so.

But then I play in both R and B, so don't see the problems the divisional purists do.

And B is what the coaches in B have made it.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 13:00 Reply with quote Back to top

@Kondor: You can never please everybody and some people are simply resistant to change of any kind, out of principle. I think the question is whether a proposed change is going to make more people happier, in the long run. If you want to avoid upsetting anyone at all, then that implies that it will never be possible to improve anything.

@koadah: The problem with simply combining the divisions though is that it doesn't do anything to address the inherent problems. You will still be faced with a choice between either pickers or min/maxers, just in the same div. There seems to be some general agreement in this thread that the problem is not simply getting games, it's the nature of the playing environment and the quality of those games.

koadah wrote:
IMO that should increase a team's chance of getting a game.


Perhaps. But why not be more ambitious and try to improve people's chances of getting a quality game?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:

@koadah: The problem with simply combining the divisions though is that it doesn't do anything to address the inherent problems. You will still be faced with a choice between either pickers or min/maxers, just in the same div. There seems to be some general agreement in this thread that the problem is not simply getting games, it's the nature of the playing environment and the quality of those games.


What is wrong with the quality of the games?

If you don't like playing vs mostly bash, you could drop out of the scheduler and play some gamefinder games.

Box already looks a lot less bashy than it used to be.

You could grow an elf team on gamefinder then throw them into the scheduler. You could then drop it out again when it needed recovery.

The 'pure' scheduler guys may say "I don't want to play vs massively pimped super elves". But I don't think people with MPSEs would risk their precious teams in the scheduler that oftem. Wink
I'd expect that they would be mainly saved for tournaments and playing vs other MPSEs.
You'd have to be less picky to enter the scheduler in the first place.

JellyBelly wrote:

koadah wrote:
IMO that should increase a team's chance of getting a game.


Perhaps. But why not be more ambitious and try to improve people's chances of getting a quality game?


On gamefinder you can pick a 'quality' game. Scheduler? You can drop out of it when you've had too much bash.
'Pure' scheduler? You'd need some heavy incentives to run a pure scheduler team.

But hey, how many people (apart from Matt) are going to insist on 'pure' scheduler?

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

You want certainty, apples vs pears, exactly what you want, -> Ranked.
You want variety, fruit salad, some easy, some hard, -> League, round robins.
You want to learn to play the game, -> Blackbox, maxmax.
You want to know if you're any good, -> Tournaments.

Box scheduler not happening? Yeah, life, it's like a box of chocolates, sometimes it's empty.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 14:57 Reply with quote Back to top

It's logical that, if there is a division giving CR where you can pick/dodge your opponents most coaches will flock to that division, the path of least resistance.
The small userbase does the rest and Box remains empty.
Coaches' arranged matches should not award CR. League should be the division for cherrypicking/dodging matches.
One division only for competitive play with matchmaking scheduler only, that way the small userbase would not be split anymore and more games would be played.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 15:58 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest (who is not my alt account) wrote:
I don't see more or less activation times as solving anything.

I do think making people activate 3+ teams from 3+ categories would make the box less filthy and more appealing.

But I have always thought that R should be the only division and Box a way of getting games in R. With a flag for 'random draw only' teams (both for pride and allowing those teams to only face similar if they choose), so those that want to avoid picking and pickers could do so.

But then I play in both R and B, so don't see the problems the divisional purists do.

And B is what the coaches in B have made it.

Yep, preach on brother.

I hadn't commented on it before because it always seemed like the most unlikely alternative (and I'm not convinced it solves the problems that well anyway) but doing some sort of R & B merge (heh) should be on the table. If nothing else, it won't make anything worse. And the purists can go soak their heads.
datom



Joined: Mar 22, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Take this with a pinch of salt, from one with a whole 2 games in box. But one thing to note - when you join up to FUMBBL, the first thing the team creation screen says is :

'Blackbox (Rules)
The Blackbox division is a highly competitive, cut-throat division where coaches are not able to choose who they play against. The toughest, roughest teams compete for glory in this division and there is no mercy for the weak!
This division is not recommended for newcomers to Blood Bowl.'

If that is what it is - the 'toughest, roughest' 'cut-throat' division not recommended for newcomers ie an exclusive space for veterans - it is unsurprising the player-base is much smaller. I certainly feel the need to get better before committing to box play; part of that is my own skill level, but the other part is because that's what the site says.

There have been posts in this discussion that suggests BlackBox - ie no picking - is the natural way to schedule games (and indeed, to BB2 players, it would be). But that's not really how it is branded here.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 17:19 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
but doing some sort of R & B merge (heh) should be on the table. If nothing else, it won't make anything worse. And the purists can go soak their heads.

If divisions were merged why somebody should bother to use the matchmaking, with the risk of finding a bad match up or a team farmed through cherrypicking?
At that point it would be advantageous to cherrypick/dodging only, almost compulsory.
Playing with a pure matchmaking team vs teams developed through cherrypicking/dodging is not fair.
Basically merging the division would be like deleting Black Box, instead Ranked should be deleted to level the competitive play.
You want to pick? Nice, play in League, but don't get CR points for that.

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