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Poll
Hourly box activations?
Permantly change box to hourly activations
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Permantly change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Trial change box to hourly activations
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Trial change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
27%
 27%  [ 22 ]
Change nothing
62%
 62%  [ 51 ]
Total Votes : 81


koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 03:41 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
koadah wrote:
JellyBelly wrote:

It might carry most of the site's traffic, but is that really because it's so awesome, or just because it's 'the default'?


[L]eague isn't the default. [L]eague is also doing more business than Box these days.


Yeah, but [L]eague is actually a good division, so that makes sense .. Laughing

Look, I never said that Box doesn't have problems - it's pretty obvious that it does and that it needs to be improved.

The thing that annoys me about R is that Ranked CR is really completely meaningless. But, if we take that away, what is being done in R right now could just as easily be done in L. Literally, the only reason to keep R is to perpetuate a meaningless ranking system and because, mainly due to historical inertia, it happens to be the default division that everyone flocks to.

As an example, I can't remember the number of times I've taken an R game because I couldn't get a game in B. That doesn't mean that I wanted an R game, or that I think R is a better division! Razz


You seem to be saying "my favourite division is not very popular. Let's destroy its main (more successful) rival so that people have nowhere else to go".

Ranked has rules in place that [L]eague does not. It is going to be easier to manage all that, plus the tournaments in a separate division.

I have no idea why you and Matt are so hung up on CR.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 03:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I think keeping R just to keep the L riff raff out is reason enough Wink
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 04:42 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
You seem to be saying "my favourite division is not very popular. Let's destroy its main (more successful) rival so that people have nowhere else to go".


No, that's not what I'm saying. Because they would still have somewhere else to go: [L]. I'm saying that people should choose between casual and competitive play, because trying to do both at the same time is nonsensical anyway. And the site should be structured to allow that clear choice to be made (which currently it isn't).

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 05:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Who gets to define 'casual' and 'competitive'?

Not sure there aren't people who play B casually and R competitively...
SpecialOne



Joined: Oct 17, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 08:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Ranked is fine. I just suck at ranked, because I can't help cherrypicking teams or coaches. I'm a truely weak person for doing so, but thats how it is. And I always avoid Dwarfs. I hate dwarfs.

Box is ok for me. I can't cherrypick there. So i take the matchup I get and have ok fun there.

League is where I play most. I can't cherrypick, and I have been lucky to play in several leagues with some very nice people. League is why I'm here so much as I am.

Box is down because coaches have gone to BB2. Its as easy as that.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 08:49 Reply with quote Back to top

League is the king!

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 10:57 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
koadah wrote:
You seem to be saying "my favourite division is not very popular. Let's destroy its main (more successful) rival so that people have nowhere else to go".


No, that's not what I'm saying. Because they would still have somewhere else to go: [L]. I'm saying that people should choose between casual and competitive play, because trying to do both at the same time is nonsensical anyway. And the site should be structured to allow that clear choice to be made (which currently it isn't).


It will be structured the way Christer wants it structured.
"Competitive" and "casual" will be defined the way that Christer chooses to define them.

Much as it grieves me to use Dode's arguments... Wink
Wherever people have a choice between open play and matchmaking division they overwhelmingly choose open play.

Basically, very competitive play is NOT what people want most of the time. If that is what you want then yes, Box will not have many takers. In reality, you need the more casual coaches to make up the numbers. When they start getting fed up numbers fall.

Anyway, blood bowl is a pretty crap game when it comes to competitive play. It wasn't designed for it. It is heavily luck based and has plenty of exploits.

You can whine about people being cherry pickers. But really, some of the more "competitive" guys just don't seem to be that much fun to play against. If you draw them in a tournament, then fair enough. But open play, no thanks.

If Box is the hardcore division then yes, people should ride their best team to whatever goal they have set for themselves.

Trying to force diversity may be interesting but it could also lead to fewer people taking part.
It could also fail at higher TV if people keep their elves, hybrids & stunties at lower TV. Though that should be less of an issue now CPOMB is gone.

IMO the forced diversity should only be on two of the four draws. If after a trial, one of the options dies you can get rid of it.

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NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 11:33 Reply with quote Back to top

It's easy: people like to choose what they want to play, so ranked is much more attractive than box. Peoplea also like to be rewarded for their win, so the CR is quite good for ranked. Cherrypicking is part of the game in Ranked, learn not to accept unfair matches so you'll be the picker and not anymore the cherry.

Box is nice for those who'll never get games in ranked, because nobody wants to play their teams. Typically these are killer teams from very experienced coaches.

Box is also nice for people who don't care whom to play or try the experience of playing without picking. It can be great or really bad, it's just a lottery, you might win, but alos lose.

Why do most people play ranked? Because it is the easiest way to get a game!
Augustine



Joined: Jul 17, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 12:18 Reply with quote Back to top

The actual reason I jumped ship from Cyanide to Fumbbl is that is seems to have a niche for everyone easily accessible. League play, perpetual match making division, the ability to pick etc etc.

Ive tried out most and for me the absolute sweet spot is activating a bunch of low/mid range Teams (1200-1600) in the box and seeing what comes up matchwise, I just like evenly matched TV teams drawn randomly without picking, I dont like big TV differences and I am not averse to a 1000tv mirror match - I know alot hate this, but it's how I like my blood bowl! On the flip side I personally am not a fan of massive high TV teams, teams loaded with killstack players or OTS freaks - No worries, I just dont tend to engage or spectate in that particularly layer. Clearly alot of coaches DO like building optimised teams for tournaments, or striving for maxing out Cr in ranked, or building monster kill teams. All viable and achievable metagames to pass your leisure time.

You might as well argue over why your favourite flavour of ice cream is the best. (pistachio obv).

For me the conclusion is simple; there are enough niches/playstyles for everyone to find their sweet spot, but not enough players to fill all those niches up enough for them to operate as well as they could. Trying to coerce league players into box or force merge ranked and box players is just flogging a dead horse, people like what they like and are going to stick to it. Unless there is a massive growth in the community it will remain what it is; with double the players around one or two coaches doing their own particular 'thing' in the box would be a minor nuisance. Or, some interesting fluff in the environment if you look at it that way.

Which is all pretty superfluous meanderings to answer the OP, which I agree with; imho less frequent draws in the box will probably mean more and better matchups overall rather than the drip feed of activations and matches currently.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Who gets to define 'casual' and 'competitive'?

Not sure there aren't people who play B casually and R competitively...


The dictionary? Common sense? They're both well-defined terms, which I'm sure most people have an intrinsic understanding of. They are also mutually exclusive. If you're playing a game/sport, you're either being competitive or casual - you can't be both at the same time. You're either playing to win or you're not. If you disagree, please point me to a sport (or game) that is simultaneously casual and competitive Smile

Sure, some coaches will always try to go against the grain of a particular div, not much we can do about that.

koadah wrote:
It will be structured the way Christer wants it structured.
"Competitive" and "casual" will be defined the way that Christer chooses to define them.


Sure, I get that it's up to Christer in the end. But does that mean the rest of us aren't allowed to discuss or voice our opinion about how we think the site could be improved?

koadah wrote:
Anyway, blood bowl is a pretty crap game when it comes to competitive play. It wasn't designed for it. It is heavily luck based and has plenty of exploits.


Yet, there seem to be plenty of people who want to play it competitively (or at least like to think that they are).

koadah wrote:
You can whine about people being cherry pickers. But really, some of the more "competitive" guys just don't seem to be that much fun to play against. If you draw them in a tournament, then fair enough. But open play, no thanks.


This hits on the reason of why I would do away with Ranked: because, as you say, the casual players don't really want to play against the super-competitive. So, if we take away R, we would then have a better distinction: here is the casual division (L), for the coaches that want that; there is the hardcore division (B), for the coaches that want that. It's not about 'forcing' people to play Box, it's about making a clearer separation between casual/competitive, which imo would make more sense and might actually make both camps happier: the casual guys won't get bothered so much by cherrypicking munchkins (who now have less incentive) and for the competitive guys, their ranking/e-bling might actually mean something.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
licker wrote:
Who gets to define 'casual' and 'competitive'?

Not sure there aren't people who play B casually and R competitively...


The dictionary? Common sense? They're both well-defined terms, which I'm sure most people have an intrinsic understanding of. They are also mutually exclusive. If you're playing a game/sport, you're either being competitive or casual - you can't be both at the same time. You're either playing to win or you're not. If you disagree, please point me to a sport (or game) that is simultaneously casual and competitive Smile

Sure, some coaches will always try to go against the grain of a particular div, not much we can do about that.


Sure, you can "play to win". But not be that bothered whether or not you win. It is a sliding scale. Some people will tip the table over if things don't go their way. Some people will use every trick in the book but still not be bothered if they lose. Some people just enjoy playing and will use no tree flings and use leaping, fouling, trolls.

A dictionary is just a guide. If enough people use a word in a certain way, that definition will be added to the dictionary.

JellyBelly wrote:

koadah wrote:
It will be structured the way Christer wants it structured.
"Competitive" and "casual" will be defined the way that Christer chooses to define them.


Sure, I get that it's up to Christer in the end. But does that mean the rest of us aren't allowed to discuss or voice our opinion about how we think the site could be improved?


We are discussing it. But there is no reason to think that deleting Ranked will improve anything. If anything should be deleted it should be Box. With the scheduler put in Ranked.

JellyBelly wrote:

koadah wrote:
Anyway, blood bowl is a pretty crap game when it comes to competitive play. It wasn't designed for it. It is heavily luck based and has plenty of exploits.


Yet, there seem to be plenty of people who want to play it competitively (or at least like to think that they are).


We have leagues and tournaments for that. You can do that in Ranked too.
Once a coach gets to be very, very good, by definition most opponents won't be as good. So, the Box is actually unlikely to deliver an even match. (Unless you go for something like TV+).

So, top coaches can play more, tougher matches in Ranked than Box. (If they dare Wink )

JellyBelly wrote:

koadah wrote:
You can whine about people being cherry pickers. But really, some of the more "competitive" guys just don't seem to be that much fun to play against. If you draw them in a tournament, then fair enough. But open play, no thanks.


This hits on the reason of why I would do away with Ranked: because, as you say, the casual players don't really want to play against the super-competitive. So, if we take away R, we would then have a better distinction: here is the casual division (L), for the coaches that want that; there is the hardcore division (B), for the coaches that want that. It's not about 'forcing' people to play Box, it's about making a clearer separation between casual/competitive, which imo would make more sense and might actually make both camps happier: the casual guys won't get bothered so much by cherrypicking munchkins (who now have less incentive) and for the competitive guys, their ranking/e-bling might actually mean something.


Thing is, people don't necessarilly want to do the same thing every night. Ranked lets you choose what you want to do. Especially, if your team takes a beating and needs a recovery game. And there is a key point. Box doesn't allow recovery games, which encourages people to take durable teams.

CPOMB is gone so it is not so silly anymore. But your AV9s will still expect to last longer than AV7s. People eventually get sick of their AV7s dying and go for something stronger. If you force people to use AV7s, eventually they'll quit.

You can still get killed by wood elves if Nuffle wills it.

This is where the "move the scheduler to Ranked" idea comes from. i.e. that teams can drop out and get some recovery or variety when they need it.

Pure only guys could still only play vs other pure only guys. If we're saying that there are not really that many "pure only" guys then fine. Let them play each other with big TV gaps.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 14:31 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

Thing is, people don't necessarilly want to do the same thing every night. Ranked lets you choose what you want to do.

Assuming you have enough patience to wait on GF or you accept any offer, because, when I played in Ranked, I could not find easily a game for my starting Chaos Dwarf, Orc and Dwarf teams, while my 1700 High Elves were often challenged.
Wasting time to wait for a decent offer is not exactly ideal, and the alternative is being picked.
If I'm in the mood of playing Orcs I can activate them in the Box and have a match vs an opponent I didn't choose/who didn't choose me (I don't monoactivate Orcs in Box, it's an example, I generally activate 8-10 teams or more, max 1 team per race).
koadah wrote:
Box doesn't allow recovery games, which encourages people to take durable teams.

That is a reason, but I think that another reason is playing 2d-actions based teams relying on casualties generally creates less stress.
About not having recovery games: it's true, but AV 7 teams can recover from destruction even in Box (my Elven Union team had 6 journeyelves and now is at TV 1680) because without PO there are fewer casualties.
If you want you can recover (unless you lost many positionals in a single match, but that generally happens in the early matches of a new team).

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 15:17 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:

The dictionary? Common sense? They're both well-defined terms, which I'm sure most people have an intrinsic understanding of. They are also mutually exclusive. If you're playing a game/sport, you're either being competitive or casual - you can't be both at the same time. You're either playing to win or you're not. If you disagree, please point me to a sport (or game) that is simultaneously casual and competitive Smile



Well, games by definition are just that. Thus they are casual and competitive and meant to be fun.

Sports on the other hand are competitive by nature because there is some goal to be had. You are competing against a group of like minded teams all striving for one unified goal, winning a championship. Professional sports is the pinnacle of competition because not only are all the teams in the league playing for a common goal. They also play for money, jobs, fame, fortune, city, country. Every one who is employed by the team makes money. Every one who works the stadium, sells tickets, sells T-shirts and so forth derive money from the team.

If the team decides to just be casual about that, well, then players and coaches are FIRED!!!! This is not the venue to be casual in, this is serious competition with a lot riding on the results of the games.

That is the difference between casual and competitive.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:

Well, games by definition are just that. Thus they are casual and competitive and meant to be fun.

Games are meant to be fun but they can be played competitively, this is especially true for e-sports.
The competitive goal of every game is doing your best to win that game, so even matchmaking games always have a goal.

@koadah: the fact that some people try to win and get pissed off when losing while others try to win but take bad dice with a smile is matter of attitude and personality, but both people played to win, how they take the loss is not relevant.
Casual people are those who play just to spend some time and have fun, they don't try hard to win for various reasons (they simply don't care or they are unable to win, or winning is not their main goal).

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Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 13, 2017 - 15:38; edited 1 time in total
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 15:37 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Games are meant to be fun but they can be played competitively, this is especially true for e-sports.
The competitive goal of every game is trying to win that game, so even matchmaking games always have a goal.



Sure, the goal of playing a game is in essence to win.

But what you are missing is that when it comes to games, every player has his own agenda on what he calls fun. That is the reason "we" are playing after all. The ultimate goal of games is to have fun, not win.

when it comes to games, FUN > winning. Everybody hates that guy who takes a game of Risk to a hyper competitive level. DUDE!!! Iam just trying to have fun, why are you freaking so serious? Same thing applies to FUMBBL.

So I propose this question to you Dakka.

Why are you so freaking serious about this man? It is just a game. Who cares if some dude wants to play in B/R/L/S/F/X Divs in a casual manner and just have fun with a goal in mind that is not centered around winning but rather to just enjoy himself as he wastes a hour of his life playing a pointless game.

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