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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2017 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah but we're talking about as a general rule of thumb (hence overrated). Some people swear by the simple mantra, "better to defend with 11 to start" and that, IMO and apparently others, IS overrated. Most of the time, it means you get hit 4 times first.

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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2017 - 18:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Some people swear by the simple mantra, "better to defend with 11 to start"

There is lot more reasons than that for kick first.

I kick first almost 90% in my games when i have the choice, with agility team or not.

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2017 - 21:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I just realized.. I kick first because I hate defending the goal line. So I kick it away, then I play offense for the rest of the game. Once to assist my opponent to score, then twice for myself.

If he's so bad or unlucky he can't even score with me helping him.. I usually win.

If you receive and score in less than 8 turns, you can't do this. You have to defend your goal line twice with av7 wimps. That sucks. Kicking is better. If anyone can't understand this reasoning, I think they are dumb.

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pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2017 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
I just realized.. I kick first because I hate defending the goal line. So I kick it away, then I play offense for the rest of the game. Once to assist my opponent to score, then twice for myself.

If he's so bad or unlucky he can't even score with me helping him.. I usually win.

If you receive and score in less than 8 turns, you can't do this. You have to defend your goal line twice with av7 wimps. That sucks. Kicking is better. If anyone can't understand this reasoning, I think they are dumb.


Yeah.. it is just that simple, isn't it? Always made sense to me.
Primarch



Joined: Dec 14, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 04:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm with the guy who asked about the contradiction. I mean, if you are an AG team, playing against Bash...what do THEY want you do to? If they want you to Kick...why abide by that rule for their sake? Shrug...
Primarch



Joined: Dec 14, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

pokrjax wrote:
The_Murker wrote:
I just realized.. I kick first because I hate defending the goal line. So I kick it away, then I play offense for the rest of the game. Once to assist my opponent to score, then twice for myself.

If he's so bad or unlucky he can't even score with me helping him.. I usually win.

If you receive and score in less than 8 turns, you can't do this. You have to defend your goal line twice with av7 wimps. That sucks. Kicking is better. If anyone can't understand this reasoning, I think they are dumb.


Yeah.. it is just that simple, isn't it? Always made sense to me.


You kick first, he grinds for 8 and scores, then kicks off to you, either you grind for 8 and score, or you score whenever and still go back on Defense...so kicking does not get you out of defending twice unless you can stall a good bit and are going for a tie...
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 06:12 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
I just realized.. I kick first because I hate defending the goal line. So I kick it away, then I play offense for the rest of the game. Once to assist my opponent to score, then twice for myself.

If he's so bad or unlucky he can't even score with me helping him.. I usually win.

If you receive and score in less than 8 turns, you can't do this. You have to defend your goal line twice with av7 wimps. That sucks. Kicking is better. If anyone can't understand this reasoning, I think they are dumb.



Come on. Any decent coach with a BASH team would see right through than and use all 8 turns to crush your team and still score. What you are talking about leads you right into the Classic 2-1 Grind.

If you aren't stealing the ball when you kick you are playing to TIE at best... or you are playing a chump or a noob.
Not that I wouldn't do the same thing if I was facing a noob. But that is a strategy for getting noobs to beat themselves.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 07:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Regarding this entire thread TL/DR.

But it seems most of this discussion is from an agility team standpoint. I'd like to offer a Bash team observation.

Playing almost exclusively high TV bash (Chaos) in Ranked majors my default position is to receive and bash the snot outta my opponent en route to a T8 score. Most matches I'm up 1-0 going into the 2nd half vs. a seriously depleted opponent.

I've found that vs. a team with an easy ottd however I go into the 2nd half tied 1-1, with them able to stall out a 2-1 win.

So, vs. teams with an easy ottd I've tried kicking first. WITH A BASH TEAM. My last match was with 2500 Chaos vs. 2500 Woodelf and I got to choose the kick.

I chose to kick, and my defense was able to prevent a quick score and force a reasonably difficult scoring attempt that it failed. So I won the match. Yes, my oppo had bad dice on the turn he attempted the score. But vs. Agility that's probably the best you can hope for. Had my defense failed I still had a puncher's chance of hurting his team enough that he'd have to field his one-turner during my reception, giving me a chance of taking him out during my drive.

Point being, kicking first with a bash team vs. an agility team with a virtually assured ottd scorer is a reasonable choice.

Edited by Purplegoo - language. Behave.

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 08:04 Reply with quote Back to top

"You kick first, he grinds for 8 and scores, then kicks off to you.."

Well there it is, in a nut shell. I didn't say it was easy. But I DO think it is easier to, by far, to force an opponent to score, than to stop him from scoring at all. In my world, the orks are protecting the ball, afraid of ME, and I have them caged in on 3 sides, not two, with the endzone being that 3rd side they don't actually want to cross. So instead of protecting the goal line, I get to spend 5 turns protecting my best 4 players, and have fun with the other 7 beating the snot out of whatever stupid dwarf gets too far away from his herd of cowards, safe in their little box. And cowards have to leave their little box if they want to assist the blitz and do damage, so that's the fun game.. what's the best and safest dwarf to attack? It's actually a pretty fun game to play for 5 turns.

Somewhere around turn 5 or 6, I get to look up and make a decision.. do I actually have the men try to stop the touchdown for 3 turns? If I have played a good dwarf-hunt game, I often DO have 9 elves left, and I can either swarm the cage if I want to force a risky play from Midget Lover, or I can make my dumb elf-wall and dodge like a poofta for a few turns.

I was a "Receive First" zombie for years and years. I was aware of the "Kick First" crowds existence, but really gave it no thought in the min-max CLAWPOMB era, where 4 mega-blocks on turn 1 often removed 3 players from my 11 man human Black Box team, basically ending the game before it had started. In those days, KICK FIRST meant DIE SOONER to me. I'm sure it still does to many here.

It actually took me having a perfect 1 Turn TD wood elf to really open my eyes to the power of KICK FIRST. With that asset on the bench, I taught myself the dwarf-hunt game, and I learned just how often the actual 1 Turn TD was not even required. On every turn 6, swarming the cage was an option. Making the Wall of Laderhosen was an option, and the aforementioned "LUCKY STUFF HAPPENS and you are elves on defense to capitalize on it" was an ever present possibility. In short, I started to get gud. (and to enjoy every part of the the game, my offense, and MY style of defense)

With the new rules, Piling On is gone, and the combination of no Spiraling Expenses with "FORCED" cash spending above 180'000 gold, I often have far more than 11 players. KICKING FIRST just isn't the guaranteed arse kicking it use to be, and that's awesome! I am really loving the BB2016 modifications.

Kicking first.. so good, even goblins make it look easy.

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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 15:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Primarch wrote:
I'm with the guy who asked about the contradiction. I mean, if you are an AG team, playing against Bash...what do THEY want you do to? If they want you to Kick...why abide by that rule for their sake? Shrug...


I want them not to kick , so maybe they should not do what I want and kick first ?:p

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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 15:31 Reply with quote Back to top

"I was a "Receive First" zombie for years and years. I was aware of the "Kick First" crowds existence, but really gave it no thought in the min-max CLAWPOMB era, where 4 mega-blocks on turn 1 often removed 3 players from my 11 man human Black Box team, basically ending the game before it had started. In those days, KICK FIRST meant DIE SOONER to me. I'm sure it still does to many here. "

Even so, if you dont kick it and you manage to score, it means you would have 6 players removed at start of second half, in that case it would be not difficult fr the bahs team to score twice.

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